8/4 UPDATE: Collins to sign $125 million deal with the Hawks per Woj

[Carmine]

We can't afford to let John handcuff this team, i'm not a fan of throwing the bag at bigs with no elite skills. If you got no all-star appearance/notable accolades you should have some "self awareness". J.C is not in the Siakim/Bam mold, we seen how he performed in the biggest moment of his career sans Trae. I know we won't figure anything out until he comes to terms but I hope Schlenk is being shrewd. 

[Gray Mule]

I believe the Hawks have an offer on the table that is more than fair.

Does JC really believe the offer is unfair?  If so, trouble rears it's ugly head.  If he was worth a lot more than the offer, another NBA team would have stepped up with an offer.  Example: Bogie last summer.

If JC is going to be unhappy if he has to sign with us for what we have offered, he may then be better off somewhere else.  We want him in Atlanta.  We want him here, happy.  JC, don't let your ego get in front of your happiness.  

I know.  Opinions are like noses.  Everyone has one and they are all different.  This is my opinion.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, gurpilo said:

This guy is trouble, already was this year with some issues with Trae

I should have added... at least as I understood that story, it turned out that McM took JC's side on that one. Just because one ascends to superstar status at some point doesn't mean he's to be assigned righteous status as-if every opinion ever held was necessarily valid.

JC is not "trouble." If anything, in that case, he spoke some wisdom into a situation.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Carmine said:

We can't afford to let John handcuff this team, i'm not a fan of throwing the bag at bigs with no elite skills. If you got no all-star appearance/notable accolades you should have some "self awareness". J.C is not in the Siakim/Bam mold, we seen how he performed in the biggest moment of his career sans Trae. I know we won't figure anything out until he comes to terms but I hope Schlenk is being shrewd. 

You get it, JC fans don't. JC is Dennis. He ain't what he think he is and he ain't close.

[mrhonline]

I'm gonna try to steer us back to the basketball side of this discussion. Here goes:

I've been looking at cap sheets, trying to decide if there are any near-cap/over-the-cap teams that might wanna do a S&T for JC at the 4-yr max. This would mean the Hawks could ask a steeper price, but I'm drawing a blank.

This has moved into a strange situation, even for RFA. Are the Hawks the only verified offer on the table?

[timebomb]

47 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

Man the way some of y'all talk about these men getting their money makes me look at you sideways. 

If you were in JC's position, you would fight for every penny for your family and feel justified. But JC does that and he's a problem now? 

Some of y'all got that "owner mentality" (IYKYK) and I'll leave it at that.

I always hear people give this argument every offseason. But normal people make the decision all the time to take less money to be closer to home to have more time home or because they like their current situation. Fighting for every penny is not what all people would do.

Oh and I don’t think JC would be getting less money if he accepted the deal on the table because I don’t think anymore money is out there for him.

Edited August 4, 2021 by timebomb

[gurpilo]

Well, I knew It was not going to be a popular statement but there are some facts that are not opinions.

- He complained about lack of touches.

- He was suspended for violating drug policy.

- He underperformed on playoffs.

- 4/90 was already a good offer, he rejected and some reports say he felt disrespected.

- He is not an elite Big, he is efficient thanks to Trae but he cannot create by himself and is average on defense, I think he is a top 10 PF but not a Max player, more than likely he will never be an all-star.

- 5/125 is a hell of an offer, I even doubt is true, if he is far to agree such an offer as some reports are suggesting. I say yes this is not the only time John is going to be on highlights news.

I am not saying he is as complicated as Dennis or Smith but we cannot act as all these things have not happened, specially the 2 first ones.

[Final_quest]

Collins camp might be looking into SnT options.  No one can sign him for a higher price without a trade.  So they are trying to find a trade that Hawks would accept.  

[thecampster]

Okay, let me try stating something I gave to the board a few days ago a different way.

No contracts have been signed yet. All of the agreed upon figures are just that, gentleman agreements at this point. 

JC can't sign anything until Aug 6th at the earliest. There is no onus on JC to sign anything or agree to anything. All of it is just monopoly money and not legally binding for 2 more days.

As I stated before, JC has the Hawks offer and stated it would be there should he decide to take it. They have offered to keep the offer on the table and rather than negotiate, allow JC to go out and find his own deal. This was the best way for JC to determine he was getting the best offer on the table. The Hawks will most probably match any offer he gets and other teams know this. So the other teams are reticent to offer anything because once JC signs that offer sheet, all of that cap money for that other team is tied up until the Hawks match or decline. No team is going to tie up $25 million in cap space on a player they believe is ultimately going to be signed elsewhere. 

Currently, JC is costing the Hawks a smidge over $12 million in cap space hold that could be used on another player. Since the Hawks believe he is > 90% likely to resign with them, its better for them to continue to exist on JC's 12 million hold than his $22 million + salary for the purposes of signing 1 more player. Of all the Hawks off season deals, JC will be the last to sign because the hold is better than his contract. We are in no hurry to get the deal done.  Should another team step up with a bigger deal, JC will get that contract and at this point would like that to be with the Hawks or another team he's comfortable with that gives him a shot at further playoff success. He is also looking at fit, coaching and local endorsement opportunities. That is the whole free agent experience I was mentioning. Feeling the love from other teams and knowing you have value.

Nothing shady is going on. Both sides are vested partners in JC's success moving forward. The Hawks will not pull his offer and have given him time to come to grips with this being his best offer.  If he agrees Friday or today there is no difference in when he signs. There is no rush.

 

[kg01]

57 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

The worst part about public contract negotiations is the obligatory character assassination that always follows the player.

There has been zero statements made from JC or his camp. It's all been third-party reading between the lines of what he "might" be thinking. Yet here we are, attributing disgruntled dialogue and selfish character traits because JC is using the entire moratorium period to do what he and the organization always said that he would do from jump.

John could very well love the Hawks' offer, he still cant "sign" anything until noon Friday. Trae's extension is not signed. Delon Wright is not a Hawk yet. Dieng is not official. 

None of these moves are inked yet. If JC  wants to use the next few days to see if what we already know doesn't exist is out there, that's his right. 

This is a very powerful opening.  No one's heard anything from Jollins yet folks feel they have enough information to absolutely assassinate his character, his game, his face, and whatever else they can get their hands on.

I know one of us has a weird, personal ax to grind with him, so his schtick is to be expected.  Watching others of us go down that strangely unnecessary path is pretty weird.

Our insiders reported the team was going to allow him the "free agent experience".  Well, that doesn't happen in a matter of minutes or hours.  It happens over the course of a couple days, right?  So was the intel inaccurate or are we being impatient?  It's one or the other.

[AHF]

JC doesn’t owe the Hawks or fans anything.  There is no “plantation owner” mentality in play here.  If he thinks he is worth more than the Hawks offered he is entitled to not accept their offer and to go solicit offers from other teams.  
 

By the same token the Hawks don’t owe him anything and can pull or change their offer at any time before it is accepted.  They certainly have no obligation to overpay him if they made an offer they considered to be a bit of an overpay as a good will gesture and he wouldn’t keep it.

We saw this happen recently with Nerlens Noel.  Mavs offered him $70M and he chose to shop himself.  He didn’t find the interest he thought would be there and the Mavs pulled the offer and ended up resigning him for $4M.

When you don’t quickly take the big dollars you out in your big boy pants and nothing is guaranteed anymore.  That is why most RFAs agree quickly.  

I don’t think that extreme a swing is likely but a move to a 5 year $115M offer or making the 5th year a team option or something would not be out of the realm of reasonable given what his market value as a RFA has proven to be.

Hopefully we can move past the “he needs to look out for his family” comments here ala another famous player who found money wasn’t there after he rejected an above market deal (Sprewell).  With any offers between $90-125M, we are really not talking about feeding the family we are talking about sophisticated businessmen reading the market and negotiating based on their respective leverage.

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Okay, let me try stating something I gave to the board a few days ago a different way.

No contracts have been signed yet. All of the agreed upon figures are just that, gentleman agreements at this point. 

JC can't sign anything until Aug 6th at the earliest. There is no onus on JC to sign anything or agree to anything. All of it is just monopoly money and not legally binding for 2 more days.

As I stated before, JC has the Hawks offer and stated it would be there should he decide to take it. They have offered to keep the offer on the table and rather than negotiate, allow JC to go out and find his own deal. This was the best way for JC to determine he was getting the best offer on the table. The Hawks will most probably match any offer he gets and other teams know this. So the other teams are reticent to offer anything because once JC signs that offer sheet, all of that cap money for that other team is tied up until the Hawks match or decline. No team is going to tie up $25 million in cap space on a player they believe is ultimately going to be signed elsewhere. 

Currently, JC is costing the Hawks a smidge over $12 million in cap space hold that could be used on another player. Since the Hawks believe he is > 90% likely to resign with them, its better for them to continue to exist on JC's 12 million hold than his $22 million + salary for the purposes of signing 1 more player. Of all the Hawks off season deals, JC will be the last to sign because the hold is better than his contract. We are in no hurry to get the deal done.  Should another team step up with a bigger deal, JC will get that contract and at this point would like that to be with the Hawks or another team he's comfortable with that gives him a shot at further playoff success. He is also looking at fit, coaching and local endorsement opportunities. That is the whole free agent experience I was mentioning. Feeling the love from other teams and knowing you have value.

Nothing shady is going on. Both sides are vested partners in JC's success moving forward. The Hawks will not pull his offer and have given him time to come to grips with this being his best offer.  If he agrees Friday or today there is no difference in when he signs. There is no rush.

 

Can you wait a couple hours and post the same dang thing again?  Maybe people will actually read it and trust what you're saying.

So far, it seems folks are more content to run off with hair brain schemes.  How did I go from the guy looking to trade for Melo yesterday, to the level-headed 'voice of reason' today? 

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, gurpilo said:

The other 2 guys we had problems to resign were Schröder and Josh Smith.

This is not correct. Hawks signed Dennis to an early extension 4yrs/$60. Just like the Hawks did last year with John, Hawks offered Josh early, he declined, they allowed him to test the market, Detroit offered more than the Hawks were willing to pay, they let him leave and signed Milsap.

THIS IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK - it's called RFAcy. A player is ALLOWED to try and secure his best possible contract, Hawks either match or don't. 

 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is not correct. Hawks signed Dennis to an early extension 4yrs/$60. Just like the Hawks did last year with John, Hawks offered Josh early, he declined, they allowed him to test the market, Detroit offered more than the Hawks were willing to pay, they let him leave and signed Milsap.

THIS IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK - it's called RFAcy. A player is ALLOWED to try and secure his best possible contract, Hawks either match or don't. 

 

It is very simple when another team offers more.  If the RFA finds no better offers, the real question comes around to whether the original offer will be there unchanged.  The good news for JC is that both parties are incentivized to reach a deal that leaves everyone happy as they will be looking to maintain a strong, long-term relationship so I don't think they will squeeze him like they could if this was a walk-away negotiation like buying a business or something (where the seller and purchaser have little reason to care about leaving their counterparty feeling miffed about the deal price).  So if, in theory, the Hawks offered $125M over 5 and the next best offer another team could make based on market price was $80M over 4, I don't think you'd see the Hawks drop all the way to $20M/year or anything.  

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, sillent said:

If you've never been a competitor true end if story. It don't take much for a competitor. Believe me 

 

36 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Well, I knew It was not going to be a popular statement but there are some facts that are not opinions.

- He complained about lack of touches.

- He was suspended for violating drug policy.

- He underperformed on playoffs.

- 4/90 was already a good offer, he rejected and some reports say he felt disrespected.

- He is not an elite Big, he is efficient thanks to Trae but he cannot create by himself and is average on defense, I think he is a top 10 PF but not a Max player, more than likely he will never be an all-star.

- 5/125 is a hell of an offer, I even doubt is true, if he is far to agree such an offer as some reports are suggesting. I say yes this is not the only time John is going to be on highlights news.

I am not saying he is as complicated as Dennis or Smith but we cannot act as all these things have not happened, specially the 2 first ones.

.....and with ALL of that, The COACH, The GM, The OWNER said JC was a true professional this  past year on and off the court despite them not coming to an early extension agreement. He was not playing for stats to inflate his numbers and forcing the issue, he did what was asked if him. Now you're throwing out adjectives like 'complicated, difficult, headcase' because you disagree with him for playing out RFAcy as he should.

Do the players make a lot of money, sure...but I will never begrudge them the opportunity to ask for whatever they think they can get. Now wether the team says yes or no, and wether they are successful or not is a different story. But I'll not turn a player into a heel because of it, particularly when ALL the facts have not been presented.

[Peoriabird]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

JC doesn’t owe the Hawks or fans anything.  There is no “plantation owner” mentality in play here.  If he thinks he is worth more than the Hawks offered he is entitled to not accept their offer and to go solicit offers from other teams.  
 

By the same token the Hawks don’t owe him anything and can pull or change their offer at any time before it is accepted.  They certainly have no obligation to overpay him if they made an offer they considered to be a bit of an overpay as a good will gesture and he wouldn’t keep it.

We saw this happen recently with Nerlens Noel.  Mavs offered him $70M and he chose to shop himself.  He didn’t find the interest he thought would be there and the Mavs pulled the offer and ended up resigning him for $4M.

When you don’t quickly take the big dollars you out in your big boy pants and nothing is guaranteed anymore.  That is why most RFAs agree quickly.  

I don’t think that extreme a swing is likely but a move to a 5 year $115M offer or making the 5th year a team option or something would not be out of the realm of reasonable given what his market value as a RFA has proven to be.

Hopefully we can move past the “he needs to look out for his family” comments here ala another famous player who found money wasn’t there after he rejected an above market deal (Sprewell).  With any offers between $90-125M, we are really not talking about feeding the family we are talking about sophisticated businessmen reading the market and negotiating based on their respective leverage.

Pretty simple!  This is a business and why people are making it personal is beyond my comprehension.

[kg01]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is not correct. Hawks signed Dennis to an early extension 4yrs/$60. Just like the Hawks did last year with John, Hawks offered Josh early, he declined, they allowed him to test the market, Detroit offered more than the Hawks were willing to pay, they let him leave and signed Milsap.

THIS IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK - it's called RFAcy. A player is ALLOWED to try and secure his best possible contract, Hawks either match or don't. 

 

How easy was it for folks to absolutely turn on Jollins?  Yikes.

Like, if players don't do what we want, what we say, when we say it, "He's trash, he's a cancer, I never liked him anyway!!"

Geez.   It's been like 2 days!

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Pretty simple!  This is a business and why people are making it personal is beyond my comprehension.

THANK YOU!!

Feels kinda weird agreeing with you, Peo.  Let's keep this to a minimum. 

[mrhonline]

@thecampster, the effort is appreciated, but I disagree with some of it.

First, JC is able to sign an offer sheet now.

 

The Hawks can't match until the 6th, IIRC.

Two, verbal agreements are as good as gold in the NBA (with two infamous exceptions). This means that there effectively is only one team left who can sign him to an offer sheet without first working out a S&T.

Three, the Hawks are operating over the cap but under the tax so there's not really any incentive to structuring the order of the deals.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

.....and with ALL of that, The COACH, The GM, The OWNER said JC was a true professional this  past year on and off the court despite them not coming to an early extension agreement. He was not playing for stats to inflate his numbers and forcing the issue, he did what was asked if him. Now you're throwing out adjectives like 'complicated, difficult, headcase' because you disagree with him for playing out RFAcy as he should.

Do the players make a lot of money, sure...but I will never begrudge them the opportunity to ask for whatever they think they can get. Now wether the team says yes or no, and wether they are successful or not is a different story. But I'll not turn a player into a heel because of it, particularly when ALL the facts have not been presented.

He really impressed me with the way he accepted a materially diminished role this year and focused on improving his defense and embracing that more limited role.  I have no reservations about his attitude or team focus at all.

Definitely want JC back and my view is that he was going to be an automatic match for any contract that he was offered.  With it looking likely that no third party offer will come, it is really about settling on a number that both sides can live with.  Makes no sense for JC to take the QO with a 9 figure offer on the table and the Hawks want him here to stay.  Should be a deal reached and this stressful week will be a thing of the past.