8/4 UPDATE: Collins to sign $125 million deal with the Hawks per Woj

[bleachkit]

Pull the 5/125 offer and offer the original 4/90. No one left has the money to pay him, unless through a sign and trade. I know that might seem like a d*ck move, but everybody ain't a max cat, and there are consequences for overplaying your hand. 

[niremetal]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Pull the 5/125 offer and offer the original 4/90. No one left has the money to pay him, unless through a sign and trade. I know that might seem like a d*ck move, but everybody ain't a max cat, and there are consequences for overplaying your hand. 

I have no doubt that if Schlenk did that, he'd sign the QO and make himself a UFA next summer, and poison our relationship with him in the interim. That would mean we lose him next summer for nothing, barring a trade.

Edited August 3, 2021 by niremetal

[AtLaS]

I think he's just playing hardball for a very quick second, and will shortly concede.  Hawks have all the leverage here.  He really going to swim naked for an entire season for "maybe" an extra 5 mil per year?   Like are you going to risk all 125 mil to maybe get 150 mil next season?  What if he has an off year or gets seriously injured.  He could lose everything.  He also wasn't a high draft pick so it's not like he's been making major bank anyway.  He's also extremely young, so even at the end of this contract, if he outperforms it he'll only be 28.

I think he takes the contract and we move on.  Again, free agency just started yesterday, i don't blame him for trying.

[RedDawg#8]

Pull the offer that we all just found out about an hour ago, because we are afraid John won't sign it, even though we just found out about the deal, and he can't sign it until Friday anyway?

[ATLHawks3]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Pull the 5/125 offer and offer the original 4/90. No one left has the money to pay him, unless through a sign and trade. I know that might seem like a d*ck move, but everybody ain't a max cat, and there are consequences for overplaying your hand. 

Word will get around the league that that's how the Hawks do business, and now free agents won't wanna come here to play with this young core. Gotta treat these players respectfully in negotiations.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Let's not talk about overpays anymore, okay?

When DeRozan gets nearly $30m aav???

I mean, that's just utter stupidity.

I would be endlessly deluging the board with rants about overpays if we had been the ones who gave that to DeRozan.  I'm just LMAO at Chicago in the meantime.

[Dynamo]

I wonder if Trae has any influence in what’s going on behind the scenes in John’s negotiations We’ll see what happens next. 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Just now, Dynamo said:

I wonder if Trae has any influence in what’s going on behind the scenes in John’s negotiations We’ll see what happens next. 

 

A player should not get involved with another man's money

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, ATLHawks3 said:

Word will get around the league that that's how the Hawks do business, and now free agents won't wanna come here to play with this young core. Gotta treat these players respectfully in negotiations.

We gave Trae a max. We aren't being cheap here. Everybody can't get a max. The market is what it is. Guys get offered a deal, think it's not enough, the money in free agency dries up and that original deal is not there anymore. That's how free agency goes and every agent knows it. 

[AtLaS]

1 minute ago, ATLHawks3 said:

Word will get around the league that that's how the Hawks do business, and now free agents won't wanna come here to play with this young core. Gotta treat these players respectfully in negotiations.

Agreed.  Pulling the offer doesn't accomplish anything.  I don't blame his efforts for trying.   I just don't see anyway he doesn't ultimately concede and sign this deal.  It would be downright idiotic to pass.  

The downside for him taking the QO is MUCH greater than the potential upside.  I mean how much more can he realistically get next season?  Meanwhile what if he has a down year or has a serious injury?  You don't risk more than your potential reward.  He's effectively betting $125 million dollars, to potentially win 25 million.  Those are just horrible odds.  It's not like he's already had one big contract, the dude has literally barely made 10 million in the NBA.  This contract is 12 times that.

[ATLHawks3]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

We gave Trae a max. We aren't being cheap here. Everybody can't get a max. The market is what it is. Guys get offered a deal, think it's not enough, the money in free agency dries up and that original deal is not there anymore. That's how free agency goes and every agent knows it. 

I’m not talking about the max. It’s the principle behind it. Respect goes a long way in business.

[AHF]

Just now, AtLaS said:

Agreed.  Pulling the offer doesn't accomplish anything.  I don't blame his efforts for trying.   I just don't see anyway he doesn't ultimately concede and sign this deal.  It would be downright idiotic to pass.  

The downside for him taking the QO is MUCH greater than the potential upside.  I mean how much more can he realistically get next season?  Meanwhile what if he has a down year or has a serious injury?  You don't risk more than your potential reward.  He's effectively betting $125 million dollars, to potentially win 25 million.  Those are just horrible odds.  It's not like he's already had one big contract, the dude has literally barely made 10 million in the NBA.  This contract is 12 times that.

Depends how they framed the offer in the first place.  A common negotiating tactic would be to make the offer but have it come off the table the moment he starts visiting other teams.  Basically you say "We think the $90M/4 years we offered was a fair offer.  While you rejected that, we really want you so much that we are now willing to offer $125M over 5 years but that offer is conditioned on us agreeing now and you not going to other teams to try to trump it.  We've got no problem if you want to talk to other teams but then that $125M is off the table.  When  you start talking to other teams, you can force our hand with an offer sheet but you may also find that the market isn't willing to match our $25M/per offer in which case that is the risk you are taking.  If the market turns out to be more than $25M per, you'll come back with that offer and we will be informed by the market and can match it or not.  If the market turns out to be less, we'll come back and talk some more informed by that market reality.  We want to keep you for the long term and hope you'll take the $125M right here and right now.  Let us know what you decide." 

[AtLaS]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

Depends how they framed the offer in the first place.  A common negotiating tactic would be to make the offer but have it come off the table the moment he starts visiting other teams.  Basically you say "We think the $90M/4 years we offered was a fair offer.  While you rejected that, we really want you so much that we are now willing to offer $125M over 5 years but that offer is conditioned on us agreeing now and you not going to other teams to try to trump it.  We've got no problem if you want to talk to other teams but then that $125M is off the table.  When  you start talking to other teams, you can force our hand with an offer sheet but you may also find that the market isn't willing to match our $25M/per offer in which case that is the risk you are taking.  If the market turns out to be more than $25M per, you'll come back with that offer and we will be informed by the market and can match it or not.  If the market turns out to be less, we'll come back and talk some more informed by that market reality.  We want to keep you for the long term and hope you'll take the $125M right here and right now.  Let us know what you decide." 

 

Agreed, if they properly set those expectations upfront (i.e. Shark Tank Mark Cuban style) than it is fair.  I was moreso addressing the scenario of us making an offer and when he says thanks so much, but I did at least want to see my market value, and us having a temper tantrum and pulling the offer.  At the end of the day I want Collins on this team, it doesn't help us if we lost him for nothing so even if it's not in John's best interest to take the QO, it's also not in the Hawks best interest IMO.  I want to resign him.

This could be a completely overblown media story.  We have no idea how his response was.  He may be extremely thankful and told us he will let us know in 2 days but wants to see if the market offers more for his own best interest.  I mean, how could we not respect him if he wants to at least try?  He has zero leverage right now with the Hawks on yearly salary, his only chance is getting another team to make a higher offer. He's waited 4 years to see what his market value would be.  It's basically what we did with Josh Smith, here is what we are offering you, if you want more get another team to offer it and we will match.  So I don't blame him, I just think he ultimately finds out he isn't getting more and will re-sign.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by AtLaS

[niremetal]

57 minutes ago, AHF said:

Depends how they framed the offer in the first place.  A common negotiating tactic would be to make the offer but have it come off the table the moment he starts visiting other teams.  Basically you say "We think the $90M/4 years we offered was a fair offer.  While you rejected that, we really want you so much that we are now willing to offer $125M over 5 years but that offer is conditioned on us agreeing now and you not going to other teams to try to trump it.  We've got no problem if you want to talk to other teams but then that $125M is off the table.  When  you start talking to other teams, you can force our hand with an offer sheet but you may also find that the market isn't willing to match our $25M/per offer in which case that is the risk you are taking.  If the market turns out to be more than $25M per, you'll come back with that offer and we will be informed by the market and can match it or not.  If the market turns out to be less, we'll come back and talk some more informed by that market reality.  We want to keep you for the long term and hope you'll take the $125M right here and right now.  Let us know what you decide." 

To be sure, that approach would be considered fair play in most businesses / cities. But by no means all. And I have no idea what the NBA's unwritten rules for this stuff are.

[JTB]

I’m so unconcerned it’s kinda odd. I know we aren’t losing JC for nothing so I’m kinda like let’s get this over with and stop playing games 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Pull the 5/125 offer and offer the original 4/90. No one left has the money to pay him, unless through a sign and trade. I know that might seem like a d*ck move, but everybody ain't a max cat, and there are consequences for overplaying your hand. 

 

You do that, and you'll get a disgruntled player and a possible chemistry killer. that you're going to end up trading.

You don't pull a stunt like that, when it comes to business.

[Spud2nique]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You do that, and you'll get a disgruntled player and a possible chemistry killer. that you're going to end up trading.

You don't pull a stunt like that, when it comes to business.

Ya that’s shady. We don’t wanna be a shady organization.

[RedDawg#8]

24 minutes ago, JTB said:

I’m so unconcerned it’s kinda odd. I know we aren’t losing JC for nothing so I’m kinda like let’s get this over with and stop playing games 

Same. Nothing has been a surprise. Things are going exactly how I thought they would, and my patience meter  won't even begin to start tingling until Friday at the earliest. 

 

[bleachkit]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You do that, and you'll get a disgruntled player and a possible chemistry killer. that you're going to end up trading.

You don't pull a stunt like that, when it comes to business.

That's how free agency works. @AHF explained how it's not shady, it's transparent. You don't get to decide what your stock is worth, the market decides that. If there's no team out there that can pay him, then your offer has to reflect the current market. That's how it works. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

That's how free agency works. @AHF explained how it's not shady, it's transparent. You don't get to decide what your stock is worth, the market decides that. If there's no team out there that can pay him, then your offer has to reflect the current market. That's how it works. 

 

Name an instance in which a team reportedly made an offer, then offered less days later?  Specifically a high dollar offer.

If it happened, I want to see the circumstances around it.