Welcome to Atlanta, Dejounte Murray (Woj)

[AHF]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

How much is Aaron's contract? Sometimes that's a telling sign.

He is getting the veteran minimum.

[bleachkit]

We are going to miss Gallo off the bench. 2 year 15 million is a steal for him.

[kg01]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

Very possible he only signed here because he knew his brother was coming.  

I take it as an unknown whether we would resign either Holiday after this season.  We'll see how they do and how they like playing here.  They are both young enough we could potentially resign them on a cheap deal if things go well for both parties.

As far as minutes, I think Aaron and Justin are both going to have real roles in the rotation.  I can see it going either way as far as which one gets more minutes but if pressed I'd bet on Justin getting more minutes given the time I would project to be available at at the SG/SF spots for Justin and the time I'd project available at PG for Aaron (and the minutes they have played each season over the last several years).

Agree the minutes will be more readily available to Justin H.  That and McM's addiction to playing vets will assure he has a role and infinite chances to remain in the rotation.

That said, any suggestion J. Holiday is anything more than 'just a guy' is pretty funny.  He's a jag, baybee.  No different than TLC before him.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

We are going to miss Gallo off the bench. 2 year 15 million is a steal for him.

Sucks that we would have had to pay $21M for 1 year and then the Celtics get him for 2 years at 7.5M per.  That is a deal for sure and I hate to see Boston get that kind of steal.

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

No different than TLC before him.

I actually have higher expectations for him than TLC.  But I thought TLC was worse than a JAG.  JAG seems perfect for Justin Holiday.

[Atlantaholic]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

We are going to miss Gallo off the bench. 2 year 15 million is a steal for him.

It's fair value at this point of his career. I was thinking he would get around 8 million. Hard to ignore sharp declines in each of the last two seasons, and most worrying his sharp drop in free throw rate last season. I think it's the right time to move on from him. 

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

I actually have higher expectations for him than TLC.  But I thought TLC was worse than a JAG.  JAG seems perfect for Justin Holiday.

I suppose I do to, but it's not like we're talking about a gargantuan difference. 

[JayBirdHawk]

46 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

How much is Aaron's contract? Sometimes that's a telling sign.

$1.8 million.

[hazer]

Justin (time-for-the) Holiday IS being undervalued by many Squawkers, is NOT in the Hawks’ long term plans. IS better than TLC. IS better than K’Von (shoots the same but with better D). IS going to see more mins than A-a-ron. 

[JayBirdHawk]

17 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

 

J Holiday’s contract is expiring. I doubt we have long term plans, or any plans beyond this season for him.

He is a stop gap like Snell, TLC, and **sigh** Wright, just to fill out the roster. I wouldn’t worry about his age or ability too much. That won’t be our problem after this season.

The issue is Nate, he has to realize the value in getting Griffin minutes so that he’s ready to crack the rotation in 23-24.

I can't say the bolded enough. I understand Nate maybe coaching to keep his job so he may tend to over rely on vets. But we should not be going into next wondering if AJ can play real NBA games.

Ideally, J Holiday should be in the Snell Role - vet who can fill in and be effective when needed.

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I think the ideal would be to mix them.   Maybe something like this if you assume 32 mpg for each of them:

They play together for 24 minutes per game.  They play apart for 8 minutes per game.  That is 24 + 2*8 = 40 minutes when one or both are on the floor.  During the 8 minutes when neither is on the floor, Aaron Holiday is running point with Bogi beside him (or Justin or Griffin, etc.).

It was reported that one of them would be on the court at all times. I don't like this because it pulls them apart for longer stretches. But that seems to be the scenario that we want to roll with. An elite playmaking PG on the court for 48 mins. 

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

It was reported that one of them would be on the court at all times. I don't like this because it pulls them apart for longer stretches. But that seems to be the scenario that we want to roll with. An elite playmaking PG on the court for 48 mins. 

We'll see how it flows.  Maybe not a ton of difference between on the floor for 48 minutes or 40 minutes.  Substantively, that locks you into one of them being on at almost all times.

[RedDawg#8]

28 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I can't say the bolded enough. I understand Nate maybe coaching to keep his job so he may tend to over rely on vets. But we should not be going into next wondering if AJ can play real NBA games.

Ideally, J Holiday should be in the Snell Role - vet who can fill in and be effective when needed.

Agree

Elite teams have found ways to get their young guys on the court. Doesn't mean they have a huge role on day 1. But they get more run than garbage minutes when the bench gets cleared.

Nobody looks good next to other scrubs. It's too much chaos and disorganization.

But you put AJ in for 6 minutes a half with some of the main rotation vets and he cannot have that big of a impact of whether we win or lose. 

I think more than anything, you have to let guys prove themselves on the court. You cannot determine if they are ready based just on the practice scrimmages that no starter participates in during the season.

And don't get me started on the G-League. JJ balled out in the G-League last season, tell me if that makes any difference in how comfortable we feel about him being the primary backup at PF? It might as well count for nothing at this point.

[macdaddy]

25 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Agree

Elite teams have found ways to get their young guys on the court. Doesn't mean they have a huge role on day 1. But they get more run than garbage minutes when the bench gets cleared.

Nobody looks good next to other scrubs. It's too much chaos and disorganization.

But you put AJ in for 6 minutes a half with some of the main rotation vets and he cannot have that big of a impact of whether we win or lose. 

I think more than anything, you have to let guys prove themselves on the court. You cannot determine if they are ready based just on the practice scrimmages that no starter participates in during the season.

And don't get me started on the G-League. JJ balled out in the G-League last season, tell me if that makes any difference in how comfortable we feel about him being the primary backup at PF? It might as well count for nothing at this point.

I think JJ and Sharife's experience last year is overblown in criticism of Nate.   Neither guy was really ready to contribute even for short stretches at first and we weren't an elite team.   We just barely made the playoffs so I"m sure Nate felt, right or wrong, that there was no development time available.   

But JJ improved tremendously in G league.   At the beginning he was obviously not going to get on a NBA floor and by mid season he looked much much better.  Numbers mean little there.   If they did Cat Barber and Justin Tillman would be getting time in the NBA.  

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, hazer said:

IS going to see more mins than A-a-ron. 

Avatar bet? (not me but anyone wanna take that bet ) 

 

@hazer having played fantasy basketball I have some issues with Justin. He shoots too much and doesn’t make enough of them AKA low FG %.

Could you make me feel better about that?  

[hazer]

10 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Avatar bet? (not me but anyone wanna take that bet ) 

 

@hazer having played fantasy basketball I have some issues with Justin. He shoots too much and doesn’t make enough of them AKA low FG %.

Could you make me feel better about that?  

Somebody posted (last week or so) stats that show K’Von and Joliday have almost identical pts/reb/asst/3pt% over the last 2 seasons  

[Spud2nique]

Diff matchup with Dejounte. Hawks>Heat

Kg BIL wouldn’t like this..

[AHF]

20 hours ago, hazer said:

Somebody posted (last week or so) stats that show K’Von and Joliday have almost identical pts/reb/asst/3pt% over the last 2 seasons  

Kevin's numbers are definitely better but it is closer than you would think.  Biggest gap is probably their assist numbers.

 

(raw stats in per 36 format to normalize differences in playing time)

K'Von 2020-21 13.9 points on .541% TS%, .363% 3pt%, 3.9 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 1.4 steals, 12.2 PER, 0.080 WS/48, 1.0 VORP 

Justin 2020-21 12.5 points on .571% TS%, .382% 3pt%, 4.2 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 10.4 PER, 0.069 WS/48, 0.6 VORP

 

K'Von 2021-22 14.7 points on .570% TS%, .389% 3pt%, 4.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals,  11.9 PER, 0.062 WS/48, 0.4 VORP

Justin 2021-22 13.1 points on .543% TS%, .367% 3pt%, 3.3 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.0 steals, 9.5 PER, 0.033 WS/48, -0.1 VORP

[RandomFan]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

Kevin's numbers are definitely better but it is closer than you would think.  Biggest gap is probably their assist numbers.

 

(raw stats in per 36 format to normalize differences in playing time)

K'Von 2020-21 13.9 points on .541% TS%, .363% 3pt%, 3.9 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 1.4 steals, 12.2 PER, 0.080 WS/48, 1.0 VORP 

Justin 2020-21 12.5 points on .571% TS%, .382% 3pt%, 4.2 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.2 steals, 10.4 PER, 0.069 WS/48, 0.6 VORP

 

K'Von 2021-22 14.7 points on .570% TS%, .389% 3pt%, 4.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 0.9 steals,  11.9 PER, 0.062 WS/48, 0.4 VORP

Justin 2021-22 13.1 points on .543% TS%, .367% 3pt%, 3.3 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.0 steals, 9.5 PER, 0.033 WS/48, -0.1 VORP

Yep, the biggest difference here is we are basically sacrificing Kevin's secondary ball handling and creation for improved defense. Well, and also about a decade of age, lol. But also a much cheaper price, which is suitable since Justin is 100% a bench player where Kevin was too often called on to start.

We all would have much rather traded Bogi and kept Kev, but Bogi picked bad timing to have knee issues that has tanked his trade value. Let's hope he has a tremendous bounceback season and pushes his trade value back up for next offseason, or even midseason this year.   

[macdaddy]

12 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Yep, the biggest difference here is we are basically sacrificing Kevin's secondary ball handling and creation for improved defense. Well, and also about a decade of age, lol. But also a much cheaper price, which is suitable since Justin is 100% a bench player where Kevin was too often called on to start.

We all would have much rather traded Bogi and kept Kev, but Bogi picked bad timing to have knee issues that has tanked his trade value. Let's hope he has a tremendous bounceback season and pushes his trade value back up for next offseason, or even midseason this year.   

Just glancing at the numbers from last year and Bogi was better than Kev in pretty much every way including assists which surprised me.   Kevin shot better but Bogi was way off his career average which i'm going to put on the knee for some of it.   

[Spud2nique]

23 hours ago, hazer said:

Somebody posted (last week or so) stats that show K’Von and Joliday have almost identical pts/reb/asst/3pt% over the last 2 seasons  

I’ll post this in the Justin thread too but I like it Haz. He sounds like he wants to D the f up which is always welcomed around these parts. 
 

Lauren L. Williams: Justin Holiday said one of his favorite things about the Hawks’ playoff run two years ago was the grit that they showed. He said that he’s excited to be a part of that and he’s excited to have the expectations of getting the team back to the playoffs.

 

– via Twitter WilliamsLaurenL

 Justin Holiday, Atlanta Hawks