Official Game Thread: Knicks at Hawks

[macdaddy]

I agree that the problem isn't entirely Nate but a different style could maximize what we get out of guys like JC, AJ, JJ and even Murray.  We're an even steven team.  0 point differential. Playing more effectively can mean a lot more wins.  We are right there.  We need a bench though.

And i know, the problem is defense right?   Yeah but you see our guys.  The offense stalls and they lose their intensity on defense.  They sulk.  Sure it shouldn't be that way but it is.  And that's the kind of thing a coach can affect.    

[terrell]

38 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am starting to believe Murray has better trade value than Trae if you just focus on the basketball. Trae's media value and market value makes him 10x the value nonetheless. I can see why guys like Scal talk about Trae in trades like he's Murbury.

I personally like Murray as a 2 way player more than Trae, but Trae clearly is the better talent with more upside. So if you can't trade him for a proven 25 or more ppg scorer then you have to move Murray. 21 ppg on 18 shots is not good at all. Murray's defense isn't enough to cover for Trae. So I am still suspicious of those 2 as a defensive pairing.

His on ball defense has been terrible lately, and his insistence on taking difficult shots are both HUGE faults in his game. Combine that with the inability to challenge the rim and draw fouls makes him no more than a 23 mil per year player on his next contract. He’s a piece, he’s not a difference maker. Sadly, that’s all we have. Overpaid pieces.

Edited February 16, 2023 by terrell

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Yep.   If DJ was a consistent #2 playing at an all star level then Hunter would be a great 3 for us.   Both they are both inconsistent at the most important positions.   It was the same deal with Kevin last year.  

Kev put himself into the inconsistent closet.  His refusal to play inside when needed made him a terrible player.  We have gone from having guys standing on the three point line waiting for a shot to having guys standing on the three point line and none  of them can shoot. 

Our offense is a take turns offense. 

It's been that way all season.   We have seen glimpses of us playing in a scheme.  We may have 1 qtr of us moving the ball from side to side and player movement leads to player passing.  but not enough consistence. 

So what we have is a team playing playoff basketball ALL THE TIME.

We've had some success with it some somehow that has become our default.  We work hard for our scores.   Last night, I saw one easy score.  Dre had a run out and Trae made a picture perfect pass to him for an easy layup.     You don't get that when Trae walks it up... and let's the defense set up.. and we go to PNR or something else stagnant..  And now you have our guys trying to make their best one on one move and wonder why their percentages are going down when they miss. 

We spend too much time playing 1 on 5 against a set defense. 

 

 

[georgia]

Time to tank the season and get a lottery pick.    Should have traded collins for whatever was offered.    Murray is really good but it’s hard for him or anyone to play with Trae.   

[shakes]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I

And i know, the problem is defense right?   Yeah but you see our guys.  The offense stalls and they lose their intensity on defense.  They sulk.  Sure it shouldn't be that way but it is.  And that's the kind of thing a coach can affect.    

you know what else can effect that even more than the coach?  The star player.  Teams mimic their stars and our star is an expert at ruining the offense with terrible shot selection, lack of intensity on defense and complaining to refs rather than getting back into the play.

[NBASupes]

Just now, terrell said:

I personally like Murray as a 2 way player more than Trae, but Trae clearly is the better talent with more upside. So if you can't trade him for a proven 25 or more ppg scorer then you move Murray. With AJ you don't need Murray's scoring. 21 ppg on 18 shots is not good at all. Murray's defense isn't enough to cover for Trae. So I am still suspicious of those 2 as a defensive pairing.

Murray’s on ball defense has been horrid lately and his insistence on taking difficult shots are both HUGE faults in his game. Combine that with the inability to challenge the rim and draw fouls makes him no more than a 23 mil per year player on his next contract. He’s a piece, he’s not a difference maker. Sadly, that’s all we have. Overpaid pieces.

Agreed. Prime Danny Green is the only player i can see next to Trae and being able to accept it and perform well as a SG. Everyone else would have massive issues with Trae. Murray at least mentally seems to be willing to make it work as best as he can which is more than most. 

Murray is an excellent defender. We aren't protecting him in order to protect Trae. He has to guard the best guard everynight and Nate plays him more than anyone else. He ain't LeBron, he can't handle that load and even LeBron has had issues on that end when the cards are stacked against him. We gotta use logic with Murray. He's been tremendous for us even if he doesn't fit at all. Both positionally or schematically with the current structure. 

I agree. He's like Millsap but for PGs. He maybe more value to contenders than Sap was but Sap was more valuable to average to pretender teams due to their position. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, shakes said:

you know what else can effect that even more than the coach?  The star player.  Teams mimic their stars and our star is an expert at ruining the offense with terrible shot selection, lack of intensity on defense and complaining to refs rather than getting back into the play.

Tomato Tomato.    That's what a coach is there for.   If you're not getting effort out of all your guys then what are you doing.   You can blame Trae all day and say that Nate has tried to reign him in and that may all be true.   But what's also true is whatever Nate has done with Trae obviously hasn't worked.  

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

SGA is better than Trae and Murray.

Maybe in Your mind...

He SUCKS...

LAC traded him for old man PG13... and haven't regretted it.   
He's been in the league for 5 years... and with him as the lead... over the previous two years, his team has been no better than 24 wins...

 

 

[NBASupes]

Just now, terrell said:

I personally like Murray as a 2 way player more than Trae, but Trae clearly is the better talent with more upside. So if you can't trade him for a proven 25 or more ppg scorer then you move Murray. With AJ you don't need Murray's scoring. 21 ppg on 18 shots is not good at all. Murray's defense isn't enough to cover for Trae. So I am still suspicious of those 2 as a defensive pairing.

Murray’s on ball defense has been horrid lately and his insistence on taking difficult shots are both HUGE faults in his game. Combine that with the inability to challenge the rim and draw fouls makes him no more than a 23 mil per year player on his next contract. He’s a piece, he’s not a difference maker. Sadly, that’s all we have. Overpaid pieces.

Agreed. Prime Danny Green is the only player i can see next to Trae and being able to accept it and perform well as a SG. Everyone else would have massive issues with Trae. Murray at least mentally seems to be willing to make it work as best as he can which is more than most. 

Murray is an excellent defender. We aren't protecting him in order to protect Trae. He has to guard the best guard everynight and Nate plays him more than anyone else. He ain't LeBron, he can't handle that load and even LeBron has had issues on that end when the cards are stacked against him. We gotta use logic with Murray. He's been tremendous for us even if he doesn't fit at all. Both positionally or schematically with the current structure. 

I agree. He's like Millsap but for PGs. He maybe more value to contenders than Sap was but Sap was more valuable to average to pretender teams due to their position. 

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We spend too much time playing 1 on 5 against a set defense. 

This This This....and most of them aren't good enough to punish guys CONSISTENTLY.  

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I agree that the problem isn't entirely Nate but a different style could maximize what we get out of guys like JC, AJ, JJ and even Murray.  We're an even steven team.  0 point differential. Playing more effectively can mean a lot more wins.  We are right there.  We need a bench though.

And i know, the problem is defense right?   Yeah but you see our guys.  The offense stalls and they lose their intensity on defense.  They sulk.  Sure it shouldn't be that way but it is.  And that's the kind of thing a coach can affect.    

Yeah.   we look at what player we need to get.   we need schemes that help us.  And a coach that forces us to play it and not go back to a default that don't work. 

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Maybe in Your mind...

He SUCKS...

LAC traded him for old man PG13... and haven't regretted it.   
He's been in the league for 5 years... and with him as the lead... over the previous two years, his team has been no better than 24 wins...

 

 

You want me to create a thread in the player comparison section in RealGM and let's see what the masses think?

Edited February 16, 2023 by NBASupes

[shakes]

25 minutes ago, StonedDogs said:

Send Trae back home dudes. Free him and lets get SGA. Hunter, Murray and JC are not it. If we could get SCOOT and SGA as a backcourt with OO we're headed in right direction. Bring Colin Sexton home and BJ Boston home. These are guys who are walking buckets who can start and come off the bench. They'd be immediate scoring off the bench if need be. 

Thats my NBA 2K mindset though, I know. 

at this point Hawks would have to add A LOT to any package centered on Trae for Shai.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Tomato Tomato.    That's what a coach is there for.   If you're not getting effort out of all your guys then what are you doing.   You can blame Trae all day and say that Nate has tried to reign him in and that may all be true.   But what's also true is whatever Nate has done with Trae obviously hasn't worked.  

[shakes]

11 minutes ago, georgia said:

Time to tank the season and get a lottery pick.    Should have traded collins for whatever was offered.    Murray is really good but it’s hard for him or anyone to play with Trae.   

sorry, that ship sailed 2 months ago.  We had our chance to throw in the towel, but we blew it.  No surprise there for a franchise that hasn't gotten a single thing right in the 5 years I've been following.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

at this point Hawks would have to add A LOT to any package centered on Trae for Shai.

based on what?  He's a PG who's never average 6 assists a game. 

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This This This....and most of them aren't good enough to punish guys CONSISTENTLY.  

None of them are.

Maybe they are growing into it.. but you have to feed a team easy baskets..  There should be a scheme that works.   That has ball movement and it elevates our players to their best potential.   Then when the playoffs come... and teams lock down on us.. then we will make hard shots. 

 

That's the thing about our magically playoff run.   We had been running LP's schemes but we had gotten good at scoring against set Defenses.   With that.. Trae was able to work.    When we eliminated LPs schemes... we still had enough good shooting to hid the fact that we're taking hard shots.   DJ is a different animal all together.   He came up in a scheme based offense.   He comes to a place where there's no scheme just guys going out seeing what they can do.   Hard shots. 

I saw him last night.... going against a set defense.. Shooting a shot, falling out of bounds, behind the backboard.   That's some Larry Bird trick shot shit.   That's not how you get buckets.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

based on what?  He's a PG who's never average 6 assists a game. 

Giddy is better... overall. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Players are aware that Nate has one foot out the door.

[shakes]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

based on what?  He's a PG who's never average 6 assists a game. 

he's averaging 30ppg while shooting over 50% from the field.  And he can play defense! GTFO with your nonsense.

There isn't a single thing Trae does better than Shai other than rack up assists.  And guess which PG has his team with a higher offensive rating than the other?

 

And Shai's team is TRYING TO LOSE.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

I told y'all this team should be tanking back in November and y'all said I was crazy.  Yea, crazy like a fox.

 

Only chance this team has of getting good is to get a real #1 star who can take control of the team and put Trae in his rightful place as a Robin.   This team isn't gonna get better jus by changing out the role players.  And the only chance this team has of getting a #1 is in the draft and they already screwed that up this year by accepting their position as a treadmill team.

 

 

I still don't think they will be tanking fwiw.  Nate won't tank even if he is utterly ineffective and I don't think a replacement coach will.  We remain most likely to be in the play-in group this season.