Official Game Thread: Bulls at Hawks

[Spud2nique]

DJ running an offense is the equivalent of Malik Monk or Derozan running the point, they can still do it but can’t be a lead 1.

[JayBirdHawk]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He's hurting the team right now due to his current contract.

NO, NO, NO!!!! This is not it at all.

Trae is making $40 million this season (the 2nd year of his designated rookie max at 30%).  If he had not qualified for the designated rookie max and instead received the 25% max he would be making ~$34 million.

A DIFFERENCE OF $6 MIL IS NOT WHAT'S HURTING THE TEAM WHEN WE CURRENTLY SIT $9 MILLION UNDER THE LUXURY TAX AND WE ARE CHILLING ON A $23 MILLION TPE AND A $12 MILLION MLE....I can list other player contracts that are 'hurting' the team more by being unavailable.

SO NO - TRY AGAIN.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

NO, NO, NO!!!! This is not it at all.

Trae is making $40 million this season (the 2nd year of his designated rookie max at 30%).  If he had not qualified for the designated rookie max and instead received the 25% max he would be making ~$34 million.

A DIFFERENCE OF $6 MIL IS NOT WHAT'S HURTING THE TEAM WHEN WE CURRENTLY SIT $9 MILLION UNDER THE LUXURY TAX AND WE ARE CHILLING ON A $23 MILLION TPE AND A $12 MILLION TPE....I can list other player contracts that are 'hurting' the team more by being unavailable.

SO NO - TRY AGAIN.

When your impact is 30 wins, it hurts the team when you are paid like he is. That doesn't excluded the fact that Atlanta management doesn't want pay to win so we are even more fudged. It's easy to win when everyone is on rookie contracts but the vets.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

address the post not the stud.. I mean SPUD! 

You are right, I should address the post. Murray is good at running offensive sets. He's one of the better guys in the league at it for PGs. Monk is not any good at running an offense. Nor is DeRozan. Why? Because they are on ball scorers who like to attack. They have no qualities of being a floor general. One of Trae biggest weaknesses is he's not a floor general. He is an offensive juggernaut but running someone scheme isn't his thing. He's a top 5 offense by himself. I prefer Murray running the offense over Trae 10 out of 10 times. That doesn't mean I don't think Trae is a good passer. I think he's a world class passer/playmaker. I think Murray is a solid passer for a PG. There is a massive gap between the two as passers. 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

When your impact is 30 wins, 

That's your made up metric. 

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Because they are on ball scorers who like to attack.

And DJ isn’t?  

 

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

. I prefer Murray running the offense over Trae 10 out of 10 times.

 

[AHF]

8 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Anyone thinking you 'build your team around Murray' is delusional (and I say that as a huge Murray fan). He'd be a piece of the puzzle while we try to find another 'franchise' player. And it's not like they are easy to find.

This is the biggest issue with any "trade Trae" plan.  If you aren't getting a franchise player back in return, what is your plan to get your next franchise player?  

Any team where Murray is your best player is a lottery team.  When we don't own our pick for 3 years that is a real problem.

So what is the trade where you ship Trae out and return a franchise player (directly or indirectly)?  I sure hope no one is planning on us signing one as a FA or drafting one unless we are talking 4 years from now and we have bottomed out (at which point the odds are against you but at least you've got a shot).  So "what is the trade that returns a franchise player?" is the most important question if you are going to pursue that path.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That's your made up metric. 

It’s like the dieselputer but I work that machine better. This one has too many variables that come out of left field that have meaning valued by the inventor (supes)..

It’s just hard to follow is all. Like I don’t get it. How? Like how does it appear as 30 wins, is it like 28 for skill and 2 because of his.. I dunno. I just don’t understand the formulas and science behind these figures in this math.

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

It would be a soft rebuild.  Just because Murray is the PG doesn't mean we're rebuilding "around him".  It would effectively be a rebuild around JJ and banking on development / using the assets Trae gets us back.  

What does that look like to you next season with a Trae trade? Lay it out for me.

I disagree regarding a 'soft rebuild'

I see a soft rebuild as resetting and rebuilding around your franchise player. We wouldn't have one after trading Trae. Love, love JJ but.....nope, not as of today.

Also considering we don't have our own pick in 2025, that makes it even more difficult.  And then what's the plan if we do get back that pick (understanding we are now forced into a trade with SAS, why would they willingly toss us back our picks, they'd have us over a barrel)....then what, tank in 2025 in the hopes of getting the pick slot we desire and even more importantly making the right pick?

[shakes]

46 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I think Murray is a solid passer for a PG. There is a massive gap between the two as passers. 

Don't agree with the first part, but do agree with the 2nd part.  
 

I would say that for a PG, Murray is way below league average as a passer.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, shakes said:

Don't agree with the first part, but do agree with the 2nd part.  
 

I would say that for a PG, Murray is way below league average as a passer.

I wouldn't even consider Dre a way below league average passer. Murray has good vision. He's an accurate passer. He just lacks passing versatility to an extreme level. He's never gonna be the stud carrying your offense but he can run the show with no quarrels. 

[macdaddy]

45 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I wouldn't even consider Dre a way below league average passer. Murray has good vision. He's an accurate passer. He just lacks passing versatility to an extreme level. He's never gonna be the stud carrying your offense but he can run the show with no quarrels. 

I don't see how he's an accurate passer.  He throws lazy one hand passes out of the corner of his eye.  He routinely hits Capela in the knees.  Bulls game he threw a no look right to the defender.  He constantly throws bounce passes in the lane where bigs have to duck down to try and grab them.  

His passing has been disappointing to me but i feel like it was better when he first got here and now he's just out there hot dogging because he's mad about something.  

Compared to a general player in the NBA i'd say he's an ok passer.  Compared to PGs he's definitely below average.  At least this year he is. 

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I don't see how he's an accurate passer.  He throws lazy one hand passes out of the corner of his eye.  He routinely hits Capela in the knees.  Bulls game he threw a no look right to the defender.  He constantly throws bounce passes in the lane where bigs have to duck down to try and grab them.  

His passing has been disappointing to me but i feel like it was better when he first got here and now he's just out there hot dogging because he's mad about something.  

Compared to a general player in the NBA i'd say he's an ok passer.  Compared to PGs he's definitely below average.  At least this year he is. 

I disagree on this and I think you are too mistake focused. He makes around 50 passes a game. 

Edited February 14 by NBASupes

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree on this and I think you are too mistake focused. He makes around 50 passes a game. 

Now i get you can find examples of bad passes for anyone but these are all from one game.  These are basically all his turnovers and the interesting thing is every single one is with Trae off the floor and DJ running the offense.  Which isn't a huge number of minutes.   

I'm not saying the guy can't pass and can't make good passes.  I'm saying he's gotten real sloppy and if this is who he is then I don't want this running the offense full time.  

https://thehighlow.io/video/ids?ids=24e0mo24AiWN24NYHr24WK8y2424qa

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Now i get you can find examples of bad passes for anyone but these are all from one game.  These are basically all his turnovers and the interesting thing is every single one is with Trae off the floor and DJ running the offense.  Which isn't a huge number of minutes.   

I'm not saying the guy can't pass and can't make good passes.  I'm saying he's gotten real sloppy and if this is who he is then I don't want this running the offense full time.  

https://thehighlow.io/video/ids?ids=24e0mo24AiWN24NYHr24WK8y2424qa

 

These are difficult passes the clips are showing me against the Bulls. Trae got you guys thinking elite skill passes are normal when they aren't 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

18 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

TWO head coaches later, Cam Reddish, Johnson Collins AND a GM and its still everybody else is the problem and not Trae...

 

 

It's not unbelievable. 

• One of those head coaches is completely out of the league ( McMillan ), and has NEVER been hired as a new head coach he wasn't already on as an assistant.
• The other one of those head coaches isn't even the lead assistant coach on his new team ( Pierce )
• The best player Trae has ever played with is Dejounte Murray
• The best front court player he's ever played with is John Collins ( whose role declined once we acquired Capela )
• No other all-star caliber players are on the Hawks right now, with Murray being a fringe all-star at best this season.
• The best veteran player that Trae has ever played with, was either Gallo or Lou Williams ( both bench players )
• We have an owner that refuses to spend the type of money to even build a playoff level team, let alone a championship contender ( Hawks currently have a bottom 10 payroll in the league )
• Hawks have failed to even get back rotation level players from the Collins and Huerter trades
• Hawks have/had a MLE and a 25 mill TPE that they did not use
• Hawks only had 5 players on the team 6 - 8 or above, and go into tonight's game with 1 center.

 

This management / ownership group has done little to nothing to build a winner around Trae, or anyone else on this team.  We have serious defensive issues with our guards and wings staying in front of people, and our bigs securing rebounds. And we've addressed NONE of those issues.

We don't have any quality vet players on this team in the rotation.  Our vet leadership consist of Wesley Matthews and Patty Mills.  Unless you want to count Bogi, which I guess you can, since he is 31 now.

We have a coaching staff that has done a PISS POOR job at developing our kids.

• 12 is decent, but below expectations.  He's at least a serviceable starter
• Reddish was a bust
• JJ's development was stunted big time by Nate, with this season really being JJ's 1st real complete season on the NBA level
• AJ, who looked to be promising, is going through something traumatic that has him on ( Bust watch )
• Bufkin, who is playing well in College Part, has not been a part of the main roster
• Gueye is hurt ( but is more of a hopeful prospect based off of his play in Summer League )

 

To be honest, who KNOWS where the hell we would be without Trae.  Maybe without Trae, we land Wemby, only because we'd be so bad.

 

So NO . . . the 6 foot / 6-1 All-Star PG who is

• #1 in total team assists in franchise history
• Will be #6 in points in franchise history at the end of this season ( passing Josh Smith and Joe Johnson )
• #1 in 3 point makes in franchise history ( probably after tonight, passing Mookie Blaylock )
• The only Atlanta Hawk star player who has won a Conference Finals game
• A 3x All-Star that should've been a 5x All-Star

. . . is NOT the main reason why this team can't get over the hump and be a consistent playoff level team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

18 hours ago, AHF said:

 

Acting like Trae is responsible for LP and Nate's departure is pretty rich considering that no NBA is remotely interested in either as a head coach.  Are we ignoring the obvious that they shouldn't be head coaches and Trae didn't hire either one of them? 

Blaming Trae for Reddish wanting a bigger role and then learning some hard lessons in New York is crazy.  Blaming Trae for Schlenk signing JC to a contract with too much money is unbelievable.  Blaming Trae for Ressler being too cheap to pay JC is unbelievable; blaming Trae for Utah wanting to get rid of JC is unbelievable.   Blaming Trae for Ressler booting out Schlenk and putting his son in the front office is unbelievable.  

Trae absolutely has his flaws and bears his share of the blame for the good and bad of the team over the years but this stuff is really reaching.

This is yet another instance where I should've just kept reading the thread, instead of immediately responding.  Would've saved me a lengthy post.

100% agree with all of your points here.

18 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

They don't even want trae on the allstar teams and u.s.a. teams, lmao. "injury replacement allstar"....lmao

 

Who was 2nd in fan voting.  And for 4 decades, that's how all-stars were named.

[NBASupes]

I believe Capela is severely underrated by our fanbase. Obviously, he's not anywhere near as good this year but in previous years, he's been vital to us. Always been way better than JC for us. 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What does that look like to you next season with a Trae trade? Lay it out for me.

This is tough because I don't know what offers for Trae would be (which would likely dictate whether we would go in this direction in the first place).  Let's say we ship him out for some good players and a 1-2 firsts (maybe our own back, which does give us some options).  We probably spend the 2024-2025 season resetting our culture, integrating the new players, developing our players, and figuring out what a future core looks like.  We can probably do this and win ~40 games or so.  Depending on DJ/JJ/Hunter's development, and any promising young guys, we could go a number of directions from there.  Most likely, we'd make moves around the edge for a year or two until we pick a solid direction.  Trades and star availability could obviously change things quickly though as we'd be a good destination for a star player looking for their own team (i.e Mitchell reunion with Quin, etc).  We wouldn't be banking on that though, mostly just developing our players, a lot of which would come back in the Trae trade (someone like Sochan would be nice in the back court with DJ).

 

This would not please most fans here, but it might be one of the best directions the team can take for the long term.  My faith in a Trae-centric team is waning, personally, not because of who he is as a player, but because of who he is as a leader and face of the franchise.  I blame most of that on Trae and his apparent lack of introspection and his general selfish attitude, but we fed those personality traits by giving him the keys to the franchise way too early.  He can be one of the most exciting players in the entire league to watch when he's playing well and focused, but he can also be one of the most embarrassing players to walk out of the arena, wearing his jersey.  That Bulls game was a complete regression to the embarrassing Rockets game from last year, when I thought (read: hoped) Trae would not only mature past these types of games, but we would see fewer and fewer of these types of plays.  That has not been the case, and he is in his 7th year.

 

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

These are difficult passes the clips are showing me against the Bulls. Trae got you guys thinking elite skill passes are normal when they aren't 

My only point is not in comparison to Trae.  These are bad decisions and lazy passes and it's most games lately.  He still hustles like crazy.  I'm just not thrilled with the idea of him being a full time PG.