Official Game Thread: Bulls at Hawks

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

This game is on Trae -- he was terrible and even more importantly, he played selfishly and with a bad attitude.  The refs allowed a physical game on both sides and that seems to be a recipe for us to lose every time, because Trae cannot let it go when he doesn't get foul calls.  He was significantly better for a 3-4 game stretch there but has returned to his complaining to the refs -- or probably more accurate description, his straight up pouting all game.

It's a huge problem to be honest, as I've outlined before.  Trae has negative leadership qualities.  He sets the tone and energy of the team as the best player, face of the franchise, and the guy with the ball in his hands the most.  And the tone he is setting is one of whining/pouting/complaining incessantly.  And then he gets emotional and tries ridiculous iso shots and starts playing outside his game.  And the worse part is the rest of the team follows suit -- Dre was doing tons of complaining last night, as was Murray.  In fact, Murray seems to have gotten much worse over the past year or so with regard to ref complaining.  Our team culture is to come out and assume we're playing 5v8 from the start of the game and make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.  We'll never win anything with a culture like that.  Seeing Trae flop, get a tech for flopping, then walk around the court doing the money hands symbol as if the refs were rigging the game was an embarrassing spectacle.  Super disappointing game all around

 

The big problem with your assessment about Trae and foul calls, is that we KNOW that he is getting fouled on at least 50% of those calls.  And the dude literally has to be hit while in the air, to get a continuation call.  He had a call in which he had obviously picked up his dribble, and was going into his second step, before he was fouled before shooting.  Refs gave him the foul, but called it on the floor.

One thing is true about the NBA.  If you say nothing about the refs, the refs will screw you over.  For years, we said nothing as a team, as we've been on the short end of the stick of bad call after bad call, sometimes no calls.
 

So sucking it up and playing through it, is not the answer either.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

49 minutes ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

The worst total plus minus is MURRAY and Clint with -99 and -100 respectively. Trae’s net rating is 0.8 while Dejounte’s is -1.8. But for some reason people want to keep the worse player because he thinks he builds “better connections” and “doesn’t cause drama” as if people were running to play DJ in San Antonio and he didn’t trash the entire Spurs organization when he left. 
 

We got this hall of fame talent point guard on this roster and people are acting like Lloyd Pierce and Nate McMillan are Phil Jackson and Greg Poppovich. Acting like John Collins is Blake Griffin and Cam Reddish who couldn’t shoot for his life is Paul George. Get serious people. 
 

Trae is maturing, standing up for his coach’s system, accepting the all star injury replacement (which is something he wouldn’t do last year), trying hard on defense. What more do yall want him to do at this point? As I said before, when are we going to build a better team around Trae? We need actually build around the best player and get some defense instead of scrubs. 

On Court

 

On-Off

[Marvin24Williams]

I honestly cant remember - what was our record at this point in time last season?

[Nash]

Bogi's the best signing this team has done in years. He's a better player than MPJ from Nuggets but playing for half the money 

[Mikey]

9 hours ago, Sothron said:

I have been told if you put a gun to Quin's head he'd rather keep DJ and trade Trae to have Dj back at point but that's the cash cow we're talking about.

I feel like I will start to sound like a broken record about this but I don't care. This team every year under Messy Ressy is literally one of the cheapest teams in the NBA. Every.damn.year. We could have easily signed someone with the MLE to address the POA defender role. We could have used the TPE from JC to do the same thing. Newp. We just sit back and do nothing so Messy Ressy continues to have a bottom four or five payroll in the entire league.

While true none of these things would make them a contender. The team is not close and hasn’t ever been 

[JeffS17]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

The big problem with your assessment about Trae and foul calls, is that we KNOW that he is getting fouled on at least 50% of those calls.  And the dude literally has to be hit while in the air, to get a continuation call.  He had a call in which he had obviously picked up his dribble, and was going into his second step, before he was fouled before shooting.  Refs gave him the foul, but called it on the floor.

One thing is true about the NBA.  If you say nothing about the refs, the refs will screw you over.  For years, we said nothing as a team, as we've been on the short end of the stick of bad call after bad call, sometimes no calls.
 

So sucking it up and playing through it, is not the answer either.

If it's this or what he's currently doing, I'd rather him suck it up and let Quin and the coaching staff talk to the refs.  He's clearly not mature enough to have conversations with them.

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

Bogi's the best signing this team has done in years. He's a better player than MPJ from Nuggets but playing for half the money 

Averaging 17 points a game. He's been solid.

[Jody23]

10 hours ago, Sothron said:

I have been told if you put a gun to Quin's head he'd rather keep DJ and trade Trae to have Dj back at point but that's the cash cow we're talking about.

I sincerely hope that is just bad information given to you.  Murray is a good player, but a point guard he is not.  No way he actually thinks building around Murray at point guard is a viable option after watching Trae (and Murray at the point guard).  If that is true, the franchise is in more trouble than we think.

[JeffS17]

13 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I sincerely hope that is just bad information given to you.  Murray is a good player, but a point guard he is not.  No way he actually thinks building around Murray at point guard is a viable option after watching Trae (and Murray at the point guard).  If that is true, the franchise is in more trouble than we think.

It would be a soft rebuild.  Just because Murray is the PG doesn't mean we're rebuilding "around him".  It would effectively be a rebuild around JJ and banking on development / using the assets Trae gets us back.  You don't have to believe that Murray > Trae to be on board with it.  But you probably do need to believe that our squad with Trae at 35% of the cap space is a non-starter for contending.  Murray's salary is half of what Trae's extension salary would be.  Is he twice as good as Murray?

[JayBirdHawk]

19 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I sincerely hope that is just bad information given to you.  Murray is a good player, but a point guard he is not.  No way he actually thinks building around Murray at point guard is a viable option after watching Trae (and Murray at the point guard).  If that is true, the franchise is in more trouble than we think.

There's a difference between 'rather keep' vs building around.

Anyone thinking you 'build your team around Murray' is delusional (and I say that as a huge Murray fan). He'd be a piece of the puzzle while we try to find another 'franchise' player. And it's not like they are easy to find.

All these other teams keep adding, we keep taking away. ...the more we do that the further away in the opposite direction we go.

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

While true none of these things would make them a contender. The team is not close and hasn’t ever been 

And it won't be until Messy Ressy pays the LT. Expecting a bottom five payroll team to be a playoff team is frankly idiotic.

[bleachkit]

11 minutes ago, Sothron said:

And it won't be until Messy Ressy pays the LT. Expecting a bottom five payroll team to be a playoff team is frankly idiotic.

Where being cheap really hurts you is your bench. We used to have solid vets like Gallo and Lou Will off the bench. 

[JayBirdHawk]

36 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Trae at 35% of the cap space is a non-starter for contending.  Murray's salary is half of what Trae's extension salary would be.  Is he twice as good as Murray?

If Trae is getting 35% of the cap on his next extension it means he's made another All-NBA Selection! Why Wouldn't that be a good thing as it means that he's still playing at a high level and more likely that his team winning? 

It's already been established that the media at large don't vote for him so if he's eligible for 35% it means that they have. That's a good thing since it's been established they reward winning.

If not he's eligible for the 30% max extension, not 35%.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Jody23 said:

I sincerely hope that is just bad information given to you.  Murray is a good player, but a point guard he is not.  No way he actually thinks building around Murray at point guard is a viable option after watching Trae (and Murray at the point guard).  If that is true, the franchise is in more trouble than we think.

Murray is clearly a PG. He runs an offense better than Trae who's clearly a PG. Trae being a world class playmaker compared to solid as Murray doesn't mean he can execute all the actions needed from a PG. 

Murray and Trae are obviously PGs. I don't see another position those two can play. I hated the idea of the trade before it happened because of that in general. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If Trae is getting 35% of the cap on his next extension it means he's made another All-NBA Selection! Why Wouldn't that be a good thing as it means that he's still playing at a high level and more likely that his team winning? 

It's already been established that the media at large don't vote for him so if he's eligible for 35% it means that they have. That's a good thing since it's been established they reward winning.

If not he's eligible for the 30% max extension, not 35%.

He's hurting the team right now due to his current contract. He's not executing at a high level. That said, as long as he's box office for Tony, he's always gonna be worth it to him. 

Trae was way more valuable for us on a rookie deal. Once he became the highest paid player, we had to have players that cost a ton around him. That's easier said than done. If Trae was making what Murray gonna make next year, we would have been able to keep Kevin and while we needed to get rid of JC awful contract, we could have kept him too. The contract that currently hurts is Clint. He used to have so much impact, even if he was tremendously flawed. 

Now his impact is solid but that a massively lower contract. Basically, 8-9 million for a NBA center. His fall is really what hurts the most this season. Trae being overpaid due to his low wins floor hurts too but that's been the case since he got his new contract. 

The biggest issue is, we simply didn't want to spend. That's our biggest issue. JJ contract rise has been a coup for us but it's not extremely significant yet. It's around 15 million. He flashes 25 mil per abilities but JJ a mired by consistency issues, awareness issues, and impact issues. His value would jump by 15 million per if he was a big wing like Dre instead of a tweener like Smoove. Big wing is where it's at money wise in the NBA. With JJ rise, it still doesn't cover for Capela fall. OO has to figure if he's a 6 million per rotational backup center or 20 million per center he's been for us recently before the Bulls game. He's usually a MLE max cat but he's been bad this year till recently where he's been amazing. 

I told a MIN fan, I don't care about his team success because they have a 220 million dollar producing squad. Meaning them and LAC are by far the two producing squads. OKC came in 3rd and Boston 4th with squads barely under 200 mil producing wise. OKC is obviously benefiting from rookie contracts playing like 30 mil cats and SGA being a max cat. Their bench is well paid and produces as such. Boston getting a massive L from Jrue but White been a coup. KP is worth his salary. Brown is considered a big wing which means he's worth it as well as Tatum. Boston is producing above its level even though Jrue is massively underperforming like Capela is for us. Minnesota next year will auto correct. Contracts are expected to even out. KAT becomes correctly paid to being extremely overpaid. Everyone else gets correctly paid. And with the 2nd apron, it becomes difficult for MIN.

GS is massively hurting because Klay and CP3 are massive blunders. He is making more than Trae producing at a 14 mil level with 2nd apron correction. CP3 at a 3 million level making 30 million. Then you got Wiggins at a 24 million at a 2nd apron 18 mil which isn't bad but not good. 

The good is Kuminga is at 14 million and considered a big wing on a rookie deal. Podz is at 8 on a rookie deal. Curry even at 51 is still considered underpaid. Curry is still considered one of the best in the world. 

Clippers are overproducing even with Powell and Tucker being clearly underwhelming. Mainly due to underpaid superstars like Kawhi and PG13, and Westbrook is worth 12 per getting the vet min. Harden is still considered overpaid by the 2nd apron and should be paid around Murray next year salary. Zubac is on a reasonable 2nd apron contract for a starting 5 at 11 per. 

The best producing teams usually win titles. Also, the best half court teams also win playoff games. In that case, OKC and LAC are the favorites. Boston next tier. Minnesota is eliminated as they are barely better than Atlanta in the HC. Big men really matter in the playoffs and LAC and Boston have them, OKC doesn't. This means, Boston and LAC are clearly the best teams in the NBA. Milwaukee qualifies but they aren't an elite producing team. Khris and Brook regression hurts but playoff Dame and Giannis being Giannis helps. 

So the best teams in the NBA are mainly in the west. The best producing teams are mainly in the west plus Milwaukee and Boston. 

NBA title teams

1. LAC

2. Boston

3. Milwaukee 

4. Denver

5. Philly with Embiid healthy 

6. Phoenix 

7t. OKC and Minnesota 

Wildcard: GS

Most disappointing teams

1. Memphis - With Ja, a slight contender,  without him, a lottery team

No really obvious 2nd team. Most teams are performing at their production level. Truth is, Memphis is too but the gap with Ja is so massive. Philly without Embiid is massive too. 

Oh duh

2. Golden State - Klay and CP3 are killing them. 

[Jody23]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He runs an offense better than Trae who's clearly a PG.

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

[Spud2nique]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Murray is clearly a PG. He runs an offense better than Trae who's clearly a PG.

Huh? Have you been watching Hawks basketball this year? Or just checking your notes ? 

[Spud2nique]

8 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

I’m in line behind you apparently I caught that too. No, just no, Trae is THE BEAT PLAYMAKER IN THE LEAGUE. AINT NUTTIN WRONG WITH TRAE. We have to discuss other issues and there are a lot but Trae ain’t on the list, he’s fine, he’s more than fine he’s great. He worked on his defense and added a Gary Payton mitten element to his game. ️ do that ever off-season and he’s a STAR ️ 

 

 

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

You are free to disagree. 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’m in line behind you apparently I caught that too. No, just no, Trae is THE BEAT PLAYMAKER IN THE LEAGUE. AINT NUTTIN WRONG WITH TRAE. We have to discuss other issues and there are a lot but Trae ain’t on the list, he’s fine, he’s more than fine he’s great. He worked on his defense and added a Gary Payton mitten element to his game. ️ do that ever off-season and he’s a STAR ️ 

 

 

Trae is a tremendous playmaker but he doesn't run offenses well. He likes to YOLO way too much

Edited February 14 by NBASupes