Official Game Thread: Raptors at Hawks

[Spud2nique]

15 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I deserved this.

Agreed.  (better?)

Ps I spoke with the vendor they can swap your vanilla pudding for tapioca even Steven. 

[Spud2nique]

20 minutes ago, kg01 said:

b) he's not been healthy and is only now older coming off a big layoff.

I’m a Goran guy. Kinda (as you would say). He reminds me of Jarrett Jack in a lot of ways, I wanted him too. I thought he would be a steady hand. Couple of things about these two that remind me of each other. If they have a play, they take it, if they don’t, they rarely blow the play up, basically they do a check down in football and take what the defense gives them. Another thing, heart , Dragic could be holding his leg in his hand he would still hobble with the other. 
 

I wanted him here but now that @mrhonline assured me that Wright can stroke a 3 consistently and he has for the most part, and he’s taller and younger than Goran, I think I’ll STAND PAT!  

[macdaddy]

I think JC is really great but i'm not upset about all the criticism flowing his way today.  Every game there are people screaming we don't use him enough, he doesn't get enough touches, guys don't know how to feed him and JC himself talks about wanting more of a role.   This comes with that territory.   

It's fine.   JC is great for us in his role.   If he can learn to be more of a go to scorer i'm here for it but as good as he is he isn't that guy right now.   

[Atlantaholic]

41 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The slack Hunter gets compared to John is pretty remarkable. 

Imagine if John Collins had been a #4 overall pick putting up Hunter numbers. 

[Sothron]

40 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The slack Hunter gets compared to John is pretty remarkable. 

This is a fair point. Hunter is a good defender and is really good at mid range shooting. That's all he brings. He can't pass, he can't create and for reasons that escape me he doesn't rebound or get steals or blocks. Our starting unit has one guy that can create and pass. Every other guy that starts can't do that.  Bogi is the closest to a secondary playmaker we have.

This is why Ben would be a bigger help to us than losing John would hurt us. 

No one, I have to add, is suggesting we throw Collins to the scrap heap and sell the farm for Simmons. If it is a fair trade for Ben then I would do it. If we are giving up too much then hell no don't do it. Wait for the offseason and bundle up players/picks to upgrade at SG or dare I say SF.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This is a fair point. Hunter is a good defender and is really good at mid range shooting. That's all he brings. He can't pass, he can't create and for reasons that escape me he doesn't rebound or get steals or blocks. Our starting unit has one guy that can create and pass. Every other guy that starts can't do that.  Bogi is the closest to a secondary playmaker we have.

This is why Ben would be a bigger help to us than losing John would hurt us. 

No one, I have to add, is suggesting we throw Collins to the scrap heap and sell the farm for Simmons. If it is a fair trade for Ben then I would do it. If we are giving up too much then hell no don't do it. Wait for the offseason and bundle up players/picks to upgrade at SG or dare I say SF.

Hunter has exactly one month in his entire career where he has averaged 15+ points per game and has done it 1 out of 13 months in which he has played. 

JC has averaged 15+ points in 19 of the last 20 months.

Clearly, one has been dramatically more consistent than the other as a secondary scoring option.

[Atlantaholic]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This is a fair point. Hunter is a good defender and is really good at mid range shooting. That's all he brings. He can't pass, he can't create and for reasons that escape me he doesn't rebound or get steals or blocks. Our starting unit has one guy that can create and pass. Every other guy that starts can't do that.  Bogi is the closest to a secondary playmaker we have.

This is why Ben would be a bigger help to us than losing John would hurt us. 

No one, I have to add, is suggesting we throw Collins to the scrap heap and sell the farm for Simmons. If it is a fair trade for Ben then I would do it. If we are giving up too much then hell no don't do it. Wait for the offseason and bundle up players/picks to upgrade at SG or dare I say SF.

I'm all for upgrading Collins if we can do it. I don't really think Simmons is that guy IMO. I think the need for a secondary ball handler is overstated. Yes, of course if we are missing Trae, it becomes extremely important. But if we are missing Trae we are done. Toast. Finito. Ben won't change that. If Trae goes down with Simmons our starting lineup would be Ben, Huerter/Bogi, Hunter, Onyeka and Cap. That doesn't work. With Trae, we only really need 10-15 minutes of Delon / Lou / Bogi taking turns handling the rock. As we saw in the streak before Trae went down, we can make that work.  

[marco102]

Just a quick question for the board.  Why do we HAVE to blame someone for a loss?  This was a collective loss.  I don't see one player who stuck out who contributed to the loss more than the others.  There were many good things to take away from this game and I'm very encouraged by the way the team played without Trae.  I don't think this game tells us what we need as far as roster moves.  If Trae is in the game, our secondary playmakers, like Kev and Bogi are much better.  I also believe this would be a win, thanks REFS!

I'm believing in this team again and it's because of what I've seen on the defensive end.  Some may say the Raptors shot 50% from three, so the defense was bad, but the Raptors only had five of the 18 threes that were uncontested.  They had a hot shooting night.

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FG3M&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022100767&PlayerID=0&RangeType=0&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612761&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game 

Pascal also had a lot of shooting luck too because most of his shots were contested and bounced off the rim and in. 

We weren't going to win all our remaining games, but if we keep going 7-1, we'll be in the thick of things. 

[Dynamo]

It’s essential for Ressler/Schlenk to make upgrades to improve the team.

[marco102]

24 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This is a fair point. Hunter is a good defender and is really good at mid range shooting. That's all he brings. He can't pass, he can't create and for reasons that escape me he doesn't rebound or get steals or blocks. Our starting unit has one guy that can create and pass. Every other guy that starts can't do that.  Bogi is the closest to a secondary playmaker we have.

This is why Ben would be a bigger help to us than losing John would hurt us. 

No one, I have to add, is suggesting we throw Collins to the scrap heap and sell the farm for Simmons. If it is a fair trade for Ben then I would do it. If we are giving up too much then hell no don't do it. Wait for the offseason and bundle up players/picks to upgrade at SG or dare I say SF.

I think Dre is fine. It's like we ignore that Oubre destroyed his back and he's playing through it. 

Just look at the drop off after the Charolette game.  His rebounding can improve and it was improving right up to the Charlotte game. 

His biggest improvement area is his ability to make the right reads and play make.  

Edited February 1, 2022 by marco102

[terrell]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

John Collins had a terrible game it happens. Ben Simmons isn't a better offensive player than Collins and I stand by that. 

Impact wise he is....Not even close..  For one, He can dribble.... He's a shot creator.. He can push the pace.. He can take it to the rack to score, or pass out to the corners to open shooters.. He's great on the offensive glass... He can be a roller in the p&r(like Collins) He sets good screens..People get it twisted because he's not a star level scorer..But he doesn't need to be.... And he's MILES better defensively... Ya'll get too close to these players man... lol

But whatever.. Agree to disagreee..

Lets just move on and get back to winning................................................

 

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, terrell said:

Impact wise he is....Not even close..  For one, He can dribble.... He's a shot creator.. He can push the pace.. He can take it to the rack to score, or pass out to the corners to open shooters.. He's great on the offensive glass... He can be a roller in the p&r(like Collins) He sets good screens..People get it twisted because he's not a star level scorer..But he doesn't need to be.... And he's MILES better defensively... Ya'll get too close to these players man... lol

But whatever.. Agree to disagreee..

Lets just move on and get back to winning................................................

 

According to what metric? Do you have a single number that backs that up? Look at offensive RAPTOR win shares, Phillies performance without Ben Simmons. There's a lot of ways to measure his impact on offense and none rank it high. 

[terrell]

3 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Well Clint would be traded in the offseason if they acquire Simmons and OO would be the starting C.  He at least has the potential to space the floor more.  

As for Ben, I recognize there would be a different set of issues if he's brought in.  No, he doesn't space the floor.  But he does provide playmaking ability for himself and others.  I think you are making too big of a deal about his turnovers.  He's avg. 3.0-3.5 for his career as the primary ball handler. On the Hawks, he wouldn't be that.  So the idea that he's going to turn the ball over at some alarming rate is overstated.

The Hawks would certainly have to replace the outside shooting of JC if they brought in Simmons, but JC takes only 3-4 per game and seems to be less of a factor offensively than ever lately.  I'm just not seeing the major impact with Hunter and OO progressing and Clint in the middle.  Where's JC's impact on this team?  Honestly, it's leadership and off the court stuff, imo.  On the court, I don't see it anymore.  

How can you be the "leader" when the best player doesnt even like you?

I think he's the leader in his own mind tbh..

[terrell]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

I love John Collins. I have his jersey, wore it last night actually during the loss. I love his fire, he is highly efficient and is the heart and soul of the team. I honestly think he is a better leader as a result than Trae is but some of that is because John has a very extrovert personality and Trae is more of an introvert. 

I say that to say this: Ben Simmons is a much better fit for our team and for Trae than John is. You can find shooters to spread the floor which is what John does for us mostly on offense. We have zero playmakers on our team other than Trae. That is a huge problem. Having Ben come in and play at the PF would give us two elite playmakers on the court at all time.

And while Ben has his issues he also is a matchup nightmare on his own. He can attack the basket, he can roll to the basket and he has great touch around the rim. His defense is elite. His rebounding is good to great. He would elevate our defense and give the entire offense both starters AND second unit an elite playmaker on the court when Trae needs a breather.

It is a lot easier to find a stretch four than a 6'11" player with Simmons abilities.  Trae has been telling Travis for months now to go get Ben. If there's not real collusion in the Harden situation I think it would be the best fit for us to get Ben. 

And if we don't get Ben, that's also great. I don't want to lose Collins for anything less than a star player that fits with our team. As @NBASupeshas said on several posts over the year: we need to find the players that fit best around Trae Young. He is the engine that runs our franchise. Our best chance of winning a ring is finding the players that fit best around him.

Where do yall get this "heart and soul of the team" stuff from?

Who said that?

[terrell]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Something was off with Ben during our series and that killed his reputation.  I haven't made up my mind on him.  He gets 16/8/8 and is one of the top defenders in the league.  That is a bigger impact than Collins imo.  Not sure a Philly fan forum is the best place to get an objective take on BS at the moment.  

Ben had family issues per Danny Green...

https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2021/06/28/dany-green-analyzes-sixers-star-ben-simmons-offensive-mindset/

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by terrell

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, terrell said:

Where do yall get this "heart and soul of the team" stuff from?

Who said that?

 

[terrell]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

Just another opinion is all I see...

What players or coaches said it?

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, terrell said:

Where do yall get this "heart and soul of the team" stuff from?

Who said that?

https://talkingpointssports.com/nba/looking-at-both-sides-of-the-possible-john-collins-extension/

 

Quote

That player also might not bring the same intangibles that Collins brings: energy, intensity, leadership (remember the report where he called out Trae Young for not trusting his teammates enough). Travis Schenk also called him “the heart and soul of the team.” 

 

[terrell]

2 hours ago, AtLaS said:

The difference is those guys went back to work.  They didn't quit on their teams because of criticism.  I mean, have we seen something like this before?  What happens if he gets criticized here?  

It's a huge risk even if the price is low for him, because he has a MAX deal.  Those aren't easy to move with a player like Simmons.  Bogi/Gallo combo is the only package i'd consider giving up for Simmons.  Definitely no Collins.

 

 Just imagine the outcry if Nate said he wasnt sure if he could win with Trae..  lol

Edited February 1, 2022 by terrell

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, terrell said:

Just another opinion is all I see...

What players or coaches said it?

That player also might not bring the same intangibles that Collins brings: energy, intensity, leadership (remember the report where he called out Trae Young for not trusting his teammates enough). Travis Schenk also called him “the heart and soul of the team.”