The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I believe I qualified it as "if he plays" and "this would make the Nets the most dangerous team". I'm not big on guarantees. Too many floating parts of anything.

[thecampster]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I believe I qualified it as "if he plays" and "this would make the Nets the most dangerous team". I'm not big on guarantees. Too many floating parts of anything.

 

the quote you referenced

"If Ben plays and they get a good attitude out of Kyrie/Drummond, I don't care their seed. They are now the best team in the East. They are so freaking big now. So long."

 

That's a far stretch from guaranteeing a championship.

Just now, Spud2nique said:

I expect my apology in bitcoin!!!

[marco102]

56 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Ayton max + 5 more players = a gigantic tax penalty.  It isn't $30 million for Ayton but more like $30 million + another $70 million in penalties (no fooling).

I'm aware. It's just a tough position for Phx front office with their owner.  I'm really hoping the Hawks can pull it off with Ayton, but I don't think it's likely at this point. 

[Sothron]

For everyone including Suns fans lurking on this board and Texas Chuck (hello!) that thinks Hawks fans are "crazy" for talking about Ayton @thecampster broke this down better than I can explain it. 

Ayton isn't just his max salary. He's his max salary PLUS the enormous tax penalty he will cost Phoenix.  There is a reason they didn't extend him. We have the only center in the NBA outside of Gobert that Phoenix can trade for on a reasonable deal that also brings the only two things they need in their center: defense and rebounding. 

Ayton for Capela plus filler is a very real possibility for us. Capela and the extension he signed that gives Phoenix more cost certainty in the future is a trade chip no one else in the NBA has. 

 

[Spud2nique]

14 minutes ago, Sothron said:

For everyone including Suns fans lurking on this board and Texas Chuck (hello!) that thinks Hawks fans are "crazy" for talking about Ayton @thecampster broke this down better than I can explain it. 

Ayton isn't just his max salary. He's his max salary PLUS the enormous tax penalty he will cost Phoenix.  There is a reason they didn't extend him. We have the only center in the NBA outside of Gobert that Phoenix can trade for on a reasonable deal that also brings the only two things they need in their center: defense and rebounding. 

Ayton for Capela plus filler is a very real possibility for us. Capela and the extension he signed that gives Phoenix more cost certainty in the future is a trade chip no one else in the NBA has. 

 

Soth, it’s like trying to get David Robinson from the Spurs in 91, it’s not happening. 
 

Ayton might be the best center in the league in 2 years btw.

[Sothron]

18 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Soth, it’s like trying to get David Robinson from the Spurs in 91, it’s not happening. 
 

Ayton might be the best center in the league in 2 years btw.

Spud, Ayton could be Shaq plus Wilt and the Suns owner won't care. He's not going to pay that insane luxury tax bill and frankly I can't say I blame him. Teams can't just keep everyone on max deals like they used to be able to do.

Sarver has a winning team with or without Ayton. With Ayton on a max deal he will have to pay so much more than if he traded Ayton. Remember how we got Joe Johnson? Remember how Sarver sold off their first round picks for years to avoid paying the luxury tax?

This is the same guy we're talking about.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

Remember how we got Joe Johnson?

Joe Johnson was the 4th fiddle. Ayton is arguably top 2 with the Suns. Plus he’s a big. Harder to get those elite centers. Hope you are right.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Joe Johnson was the 4th fiddle. Ayton is arguably top 2 with the Suns. Plus he’s a big. Harder to get those elite centers. Hope you are right.

Watching you two guys bicker is like watching brothers fighting.  Nobody's gonna give a low blow but whoever finally does it is gonna get in trouble with momma.

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Watching you two guys bicker is like watching brothers fighting.  Nobody's gonna give a low blow but whoever finally does it is gonna get in trouble with momma.

I get his reticence to believe that Ayton will be available but he will be. I'm not swearing he's definitely coming to Atlanta but unless Sarver has a change of heart and wants to pay an enormous luxury tax for years to come...

[Diesel]

57 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I believe I qualified it as "if he plays" and "this would make the Nets the most dangerous team". I'm not big on guarantees. Too many floating parts of anything.

People think Nate... But the Nets have the worst coach in Basketball.   They won't win a chip with him at the helm. 

[Final_quest]

If nothing else there is some smoke with Ayton.  Sarver is a budget focused owner, we have the asset to keep them winning with a lower payroll.  

This has more merit for discussion than most anything out there.  The Jazz duo is another one, and it’s hard to come up with other options.

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

People think Nate... But the Nets have the worst coach in Basketball.   They won't win a chip with him at the helm. 

They definitely have a problem.  Not just coaching wise though.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

I get his reticence to believe that Ayton will be available but he will be. I'm not swearing he's definitely coming to Atlanta but unless Sarver has a change of heart and wants to pay an enormous luxury tax for years to come...

The anatomy of a trade like this doesn't require us sending back equal value to Phoenix. It just requires us sending out equal value some where because we will also be the team above the LT after this.

 

Imagine a scenario where a few young players (say OO + someone from OKC) went to Phoenix to greatly lower their tax situation and Clint landed in OKC. You could validate the requirements of the trade provisions. The only real stipulation here is Phoenix can't package him, but other pieces could move in a complicated deal. It is really possible to keep Phoenix competitive while lowering their potential salary ceiling.

 

The easy answer here is to just say "nope, nope, nope, nope" but there are numerous possibilities due to the large salaries and a few teams who will operate under the cap come July that need to get better.

[marco102]

Travis is going for Ayton...lol

 

[AHF]

22 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

When you say value assets, are you talking about draft picks?  Or high valued players?  

Gobert is at $38M so we're talking about Clint ($20M) + Bogi ($18M) or Clint ($20M) + Kevin ($14M) + OO ($6M) for Gobert and another player

Ayton at Max would be $30.5M (I think) so that's more like Clint ($20M) + Kevin ($14M) 

I would think a pick would be included with either one.  But I'm just asking cuz I don't see how the $38M player is going to cost less to acquire than the $30M player (or maybe less?).  

Valued assets to me are picks or players you want to keep.  Non-value assets are overpaid players, late second round picks, etc. - filler basically.  

Toxic assets gets traded with value attached to them to entice the other team to trade them.  I guess I see Gobert potentially as being somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.  He has gotten a lot of negative attention for having been neutralized in the playoffs this year after several similar prior seasons so I'm not sure that Utah is getting full value for him because I think he is probably overpaid relative to what he would get if he was an UFA today.  If Utah is clearing salary in the deal, getting Gallo and cutting him could be a key part of the deal for them.

22 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

ps @AHF compare Gobert to Simmons… to Zion.. Gobert has 1/2 strike against him in my eyes while the other two like 10 strikes. 

Fully agree with that.  Gobert is muuuch lower risk than either of them.  Their only advantage in that regard is age.  He'll be in his 30's for the remainder of his contract whereas they are 21 and 25.  But fully agree with you.

22 hours ago, shakes said:

yes I remember it all too well, but in retrospect it was a bunch of nonsense.    If anything, Rudy probably saved lives by doing what he did and being the first person to draw national attention to COVID and accelerating the time frame for the first shut down.  

And as we all know now, no one got COVID from touching stuff.   

This is the equivalent of saying "he stuck someone's finger in the socket because he thought it wouldn't really hurt them and no one got hurt because we didn't know the power was off; he actually did a good thing because we didn't realize the fuse needed to be replaced and he drew attention to it and got the plan to start doing preventative maintenance."  It was grossly stupid at the time, similar to the people who coughed on other people to make a point about there being no real risk.  We didn't know what the channels of transmission were at the time which was why it didn't make sense to do it.  To his credit, he has owned the mistake and apologized for it and I think he is genuine with that.

22 hours ago, RandomFan said:

So what you're saying is we have to pull for Luka to wreck PHX this series? 

So much this.

[JTB]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

Spud, Ayton could be Shaq plus Wilt and the Suns owner won't care. He's not going to pay that insane luxury tax bill and frankly I can't say I blame him. Teams can't just keep everyone on max deals like they used to be able to do.

Sarver has a winning team with or without Ayton. With Ayton on a max deal he will have to pay so much more than if he traded Ayton. Remember how we got Joe Johnson? Remember how Sarver sold off their first round picks for years to avoid paying the luxury tax?

This is the same guy we're talking about.

This makes total sense and I completely understand it. I guess I don’t know the Suns owner very well ….even if you are a budget owner doesn’t that change when you finally realistically have a championship roster on your plate???

I understand the enormous lux tax bill Ayton would bring but I guess to me it’s like this…what better time is there then now to potentially go into paying this ?….I mean at least it makes sense. Lux Tax = championships or highly possible championships 

if you’re a nba owner and you’re afraid of the lux tax at any rate or expense then you mind as well not be an owner. You’re pretty much saying the team can have 5 future hall of famers and you’re not willing to pay to keep it going. I’d be pissed if Resseler made that decision.

 

last in my opinion if the suns replace Ayton with anyone lesser talented than capela they are no longer a championship team but Ayton gives them the whole package.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

This makes total sense and I completely understand it. I guess I don’t know the Suns owner very well ….even if you are a budget owner doesn’t that change when you finally realistically have a championship roster on your plate???

To lend credence to that, think about the state of the Suns when they unloaded Joe.  They were 62-20 that season with the best record in the entire league (they were the only 60 win team that season).  As a result of losing Joe, they dropped to 54 wins the following season.  Trading Ayton for Capela and one of Huerter/OO/Hunter/Gallo, etc. and picks (or something like that with whatever filler is necessary) could translate into a very similar situation.

That said, I always am skeptical any up and coming player like Ayton gets moved for anything less than a king's ransom.

[shakes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

 

This is the equivalent of saying "he stuck someone's finger in the socket because he thought it wouldn't really hurt them and no one got hurt because we didn't know the power was off; he actually did a good thing because we didn't realize the fuse needed to be replaced and he drew attention to it and got the plan to start doing preventative maintenance."  It was grossly stupid at the time, similar to the people who coughed on other people to make a point about there being no real risk.  We didn't know what the channels of transmission were at the time which was why it didn't make sense to do it.  To his credit, he has owned the mistake and apologized for it and I think he is genuine with that.

 

I disagree with that analogy.   Everyone knows or should know that sticking your finger in an outlet could cause you to get hurt.  No one knew that touching someone's microphone or towel would cause Covid. And as it turns out,  it doesn't.  Just a massive overreaction at the time based on everyone's collective ignorance to COVID.

And if anyone is still mad at Rudy about that then the problem lies in the mirror, not with Rudy.

[thecampster]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

To lend credence to that, think about the state of the Suns when they unloaded Joe.  They were 62-20 that season with the best record in the entire league (they were the only 60 win team that season).  As a result of losing Joe, they dropped to 54 wins the following season.  Trading Ayton for Capela and one of Huerter/OO/Hunter/Gallo, etc. and picks (or something like that with whatever filler is necessary) could translate into a very similar situation.

That said, I always am skeptical any up and coming player like Ayton gets moved for anything less than a king's ransom.

Well that's the rub isn't it.  In order to move him you need 1 of 3 scenarios.  Scenario 1 is you move him for 3 salaries that add up to the matching salary to enable them to spread out the salary hit among players.  In order to do that, you'll need a team like Atlanta with 3 salaries around $10 mil each (average).  Clint, OO, JJ fits that bill (a deal I would not do).  Scenario 2, you move him for multiple salaries in a none salary matching move to get much lower. In order to do that you need a team under the cap (like OKC) with cheap assets you might want (like OKC).  Scenario 3, you move him in an equal value deal for a better fit at similar value....this one is really hard to find but I can think of a few very unlikely scenarios.

Typically scenarios 1 and 2 don't exist which is the reason you don't find up and comers being moved. But this season we have both. The opportunity and motivation exists. Its really a matter of compensation.

[REHawksFan]

@thecampster I have no idea if the following ask is asking too much or if it's an easy calculation, but I'm going to ask anyway understanding that if it's too much trouble you won't be inclined to acquiesce this request. 

Can you tell us how much the Suns owner is actually looking at in LT bill if he signs Ayton to his $30.5 Max vs if he trades that max to Atl for Clint and whomever is needed to make the deal work?  Just wondering what the potential savings from them will be by doing the deal.  I'm assuming they would be in the LT either way. 

Is that an impossible ask?