Official Game Thread: Hawks at heat (2 of 2)

[Spud2nique]

Y’all ghosting me? I usually come back to an array of likes. @kg01 I think the mods are taking my likes away. 

[Sothron]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The way some of you guys talk about KAT is exactly how many message boards I've been on talk about Trae. A lot of wrong shit. 

@Sothron is probably the only poster here who watches more Wolves games than me and his opinion generally reflects most Wolves fans opinions on KAT whereas, you guys sound like Hawk fans, not national fans on Trae. 

I am not saying you guys don't have valid opinions on KAT, I am saying, it's generally an extreme one way opinion that's generally wrong. KAT and Trae maybe the two most misconstrued players if you don't watch all of their games. 

To me, players from 15-60 are generally all pretty similar level wise in this league and can be undervalued or overvalued depending on the person but based on what I see here from many on KAT, its a lot of trash. I seen idiots on Hawks Reddit say he's a losing player. It's a lot of the same foolishness you read on Trae on other message boards. 

KAT is a superstar. The only reason his rebounding numbers are down this year is because they brought in Gobert and moved KAT to PF. Gobet is the best rebounder in the NBA ofc KAT's numbers will take a dip.

Trae and KAT together would be filthy on offense. Putting OO in the starting line up next to KAT would give us a quicker big to defend. KAT is a legit three level scorer and an excellent free throw shooter. I don't know how much we would have to give up to trade for him but I would do it 100%. 

You can't fake being as good as KAT is season after season. You just can't. @NBASupes is correct. You guys, no offense intended, sound just like the random NBA fans that hate Trae Young and trash him without even really watching him or understanding what he actually does on the court.

[Spud2nique]

Went through 15 pages of reading y’all’s comments and high five ing mahfckers. Not one response to some decent observations from me about the game huh? 
 

okaaayyyy okaaaayyyy

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Huerter won the hearts of so many here but honestly Bogi played Better.  Huerter had everything needed to be the best sidekick but Huerter wasn't good with Physical Play. 

 

 

This is the answer I was looking for.

People need to remember that Huerter was on this squad last year too, when we lost to the Heat in 5 games.  And after that series, I didn't hear anyone in the fan base clamoring for keeping Huerter.

Trae was trash in that series, but so was Huerter

• 9.2 ppg
• 3.0 rebs
• 3.8 asst
• 1.2 stls
• 2.2 TOs

 

• 36% FG
• 29% 3FG
• 75% FT

The issue with Huerter was always his toughess and aggressiveness on offense.  I was a Huerter fan.  But he was also ultra soft and shyed away from physicality.  This is an issue with all of our wings by the way, but I can at least say that Bogi played a "tougher" game than Huerter.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

KAT is a superstar. The only reason his rebounding numbers are down this year is because they brought in Gobert and moved KAT to PF. Gobet is the best rebounder in the NBA ofc KAT's numbers will take a dip.

Trae and KAT together would be filthy on offense. Putting OO in the starting line up next to KAT would give us a quicker big to defend. KAT is a legit three level scorer and an excellent free throw shooter. I don't know how much we would have to give up to trade for him but I would do it 100%. 

You can't fake being as good as KAT is season after season. You just can't. @NBASupes is correct. You guys, no offense intended, sound just like the random NBA fans that hate Trae Young and trash him without even really watching him or understanding what he actually does on the court.

Not sure the last sentence is necessary but i agree with the rest of it.

I'm tired of watching guys we hate on around here go to teams and make them much better.  

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

This is the answer I was looking for.

People need to remember that Huerter was on this squad last year too, when we lost to the Heat in 5 games.  And after that series, I didn't hear anyone in the fan base clamoring for keeping Huerter.

Trae was trash in that series, but so was Huerter

• 9.2 ppg
• 3.0 rebs
• 3.8 asst
• 1.2 stls
• 2.2 TOs

 

• 36% FG
• 29% 3FG
• 75% FT

The issue with Huerter was always his toughess and aggressiveness on offense.  I was a Huerter fan.  But he was also ultra soft and shyed away from physicality.  This is an issue with all of our wings by the way, but I can at least say that Bogi played a "tougher" game than Huerter.

That's not exactly accurate.  I was clamoring to move him to the bench because he's not good enough to be a starting wing.   No one was clamoring to salary dump him.   He's too good for that. 

[Spud2nique]

8 minutes ago, Sothron said:

KAT is a superstar.

Honestly I’ve heard very little about anything he’s doing this year, date back further, he’s been in the league what, a decade now, he is one of the most overrated players Soth.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

i realize Hunter is a very good player and is super important to our defense.  But has the dude ever hit an important shot in crunch time.   Yeah he hits some late shots but they are usually too late.  Sure it's not his fault we lost but he's got to be able to knock down open 3s when it really matters.  

Or get a timely steal or block or put the clamps on somebody. I keep waiting. He was the #4 pick.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Honestly I’ve heard very little about anything he’s doing this year, date back further, he’s been in the league what, a decade now, he is one of the most overrated players Soth.

Towns' performance in his first playoffs really soured me on him.  Fairly or unfairly?  Eh, who knows (cares).

Honestly, I trash him sometimes just to get soth's blood pressure up.  Works every time.   

On our games?  Eh, I somehow missed the last 2 ... for some reason.  But if yall see my heat fan BIL, tell him to EABOD and that he better bring plates and cups to the family BBQ on the 4th of July. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

KAT is a superstar. The only reason his rebounding numbers are down this year is because they brought in Gobert and moved KAT to PF. Gobet is the best rebounder in the NBA ofc KAT's numbers will take a dip.

Trae and KAT together would be filthy on offense. Putting OO in the starting line up next to KAT would give us a quicker big to defend. KAT is a legit three level scorer and an excellent free throw shooter. I don't know how much we would have to give up to trade for him but I would do it 100%. 

You can't fake being as good as KAT is season after season. You just can't. @NBASupes is correct. You guys, no offense intended, sound just like the random NBA fans that hate Trae Young and trash him without even really watching him or understanding what he actually does on the court.

For grins... 

Let's say the trade is:

JC/DJ/AJ/ 2 first for KAT/Prince...

How does this make us better?

 

[Wretch]

My takeaways from the SG/KAT conversation...

The concern with our team is obviously "fit" along with scheming, but this isn't unique to Trae and the Hawks.  This is just the basics of team building.  The best teams have guys that compliment each other.  The only contender that I can think of that didn't was the 2011 Heat - and that team got by on uber-talent and a weak EC. 

Their "take turns" dribble penetration was predictable and reduced Chris Bosh to a spot up shooter.  They got spanked by Dallas, added a legendary shooter to compensate, and then beat up a young Thunder team that shouldn't have beaten San Antonio.  Accordingly, it was that same shooter that bailed them out against the Spurs the following season.

Without a post threat or a sniper, we are basically that Heat team minus the size.  It takes a lot of clock and effort to set up plays off the dribble, more so when a "handsy" team like the Heat are allowed to do what they do for the sake of NBA narrative.  So, ball movement is key (not news, I know), but again...it's just more clock and no payoff if you don't have real shooters out there.  SSDD I'm afraid even with a better coach, though I'm sure things will get better as Quin makes adjustments.

Long term though, we must add a sniper to the starting lineup or a dominant post threat.  One or the other.  Honestly, we'd have both bringing in a center like KAT.  It's not about him as an individual player, it's about how it affects the dynamics of our offense.  His gravity down low lets Trae float as a sniper.

As it were...

We just have to continue with purposeful ball/player movement.  That and trying to go to Dre or OO in the post.  Maybe even Cap if we can get him in deep enough (I'm not editing it @kg01lol).  I'd also like to see Dre more often as the CNS option off the dribble penetration/PNR - maybe I'm not paying attention, but it feels like it's always JC that ends up with it.  If we need a sniper in the starting lineup and we're not changing anything, then it's gonna have to be Dre.  If we do start thinking about switching things up...I think there might be an uncomfortable Bey conversation in there somewhere.

[benhillboy]

I haven’t read all the new comments but I’m guessing Kevin balling out last night on national TV is part of the discussion.  Fox’s super quick penetration and transition, Sabonis’ post passing, offesnive rebound passing and hard rolling, and Barnes’ versatility all amplify what Kevin does well: transition shooting, catch and shoot, defend decent with a favorable matchup, and nice PNR pockets and lobs.  Most of that simply wasn’t in place for him here.  Sabonis’ offensive value is truly equal to all our Bigs combined he’s that good.  He’s so smart (and tough) he’d rather catch a lob, come down, and force an And-1 than just dunk it for 2.

But back to Hawks/ heat business.  I really hope Quinn’s hire is a legacy move.  Because Spo is 4 years younger as he waits for the HOF to hit his phone. You need a coach with all his T’s crossed and I’s dotted for a long ass time in this division.  

Old coaches aren’t in vogue it seems anymore.  Pop is the only one close to 70 (73), then it’s Casey at 65.  Freaking Joe Mazzula was born to coach but he still has his damn umbilical cord attached lol.

Edited March 7, 2023 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

I haven’t read all the new comments but I’m guessing Kevin balling out last night on national TV is part of the discussion.  Fox’s super quick penetration and transition, Sabonis’ post passing, offesnive rebound passing and hard rolling, and Barnes’ versatility all amplify what Kevin does well: transition shooting, catch and shoot, defend decent with a favorable matchup, and nice PNR pockets and lobs.  Most of that simply wasn’t in place for him here.

But back to Hawks/ heat business.  I really hope Quinn’s hire is a legacy move.  Because Spo is 4 years younger as he waits for the HOF to hit his phone. You need a coach with all his T’s crossed and I’s dotted for a long ass time in this division.  

Old coaches aren’t in vogue it seems anymore.  Pop is the only one close to 70 (73), then it’s Casey at 65.  Freaking Joe Mazzula was born to coach but he still has his damn umbilical cord attached lol.

I mean I think Spoelstra is a really good coach.  He has definitely outcoached the Hawks on multiple occasions but take away Lebron and the bubble and he's gotten the Heat out of the first round twice in 9 years.  Missed the playoffs 3 of those 9.   I know basketball purists consider it ignorant to even mention this but results are results.    

[Gray Mule]

My worst gripe with Capela is, he can't hit the majority of his free throws and he can't score unless he's right at the goal.  0017 is much better.  If we trade JC and Capela, I hope we get a center who can make his free throws.

What if we drafted a big center?  What if we trade for a big center?  In either case, I really hope he can hit his free throws.  Capela is great at what he does.  Problem is, he can't do anything else on offense.

[benhillboy]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I mean I think Spoelstra is a really good coach.  He has definitely outcoached the Hawks on multiple occasions but take away Lebron and the bubble and he's gotten the Heat out of the first round twice in 9 years.  Missed the playoffs 3 of those 9.   I know basketball purists consider it ignorant to even mention this but results are results.    

That’s all granted.  He and Pat apparently have a soft spot for overachieving small guards who aren’t championship level.  Who else could get to the Conference Finals with so many undrafted players?  I think no one.  
 

I’ve always appreciated that his teams have never had an effort issue.  And LeBron ran off because he simply couldn’t take the hard coaching anymore, which is exactly what he needed to get over the championship hump.  As much firepower as their Big 3 brought to the table the remainder of that roster was below average on the best days of their lives and their terrible rebounding was a considerable hurdle for him to balance with his insistence on transition D.

I can totally understand someone not being enamored with him, results are king at the end of the day.  I’m not one to throw away or discount the Eastern Champ bubble run like many fans  but then again we all have different nuances and perceptions.  I just know I always have been a huge fan of dude’s come-up, loyalty, consistency, and focus.

 

[Sothron]

57 minutes ago, Diesel said:

For grins... 

Let's say the trade is:

JC/DJ/AJ/ 2 first for KAT/Prince...

How does this make us better?

 

I'm not giving them AJ. He's too valuable. DJ and JC and two firsts is enough.

If we lost DJ/JC or Capela in a three way trade to get KAT then we would have to start OO at PF. Hunter stays at SF. We resign Bogi to be the sixth man and start AJ at the SG position. Jalen and Bey are top reserves off the bench. We upgrade for backup PG. Tony will pay the luxury tax next season so we can add salary to the roster.

It would make us better because KAT is elite at what he does well. We don't have anyone other than Trae's passing that is truly elite at something on our roster. Having KAT in the lineup will create space for cutters and for Trae to attack inside the paint better. 

Honestly this isn't about if the Hawks would do a trade for KAT but more are the TWolves willing to break up their Twin Tower approach and move off KAT. KAT has been injured basically the entire season so they never really got much chance to gel. I would not be surprised and even expect the TWolves to give KAT/Gobert at least one full healthy season together before they made a decision on keeping them or splitting them  up.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

JC/DJ/AJ/ 2 first for KAT/Prince...

I will leave as a Hawks fan. Worst trade ever. Landry would get canned.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

i realize Hunter is a very good player and is super important to our defense.  But has the dude ever hit an important shot in crunch time.   Yeah he hits some late shots but they are usually too late.  Sure it's not his fault we lost but he's got to be able to knock down open 3s when it really matters.  

 

Hunter is a slightly above average player, mainly because there's not one thing that he does at a high level.  He's been very efficient in the past 9 games ( 16 ppg on 52% FG and 40% 3FG ).  But when was the last time you've said . . . "De'Andre's overall play in this game was the difference in this game?"

He, more than anyone else on this team, could improve our team dramatically if he was able to take that next step as a player, especially on the defensive end ( where he's overrated by this fan base ). 

This is a site that I reference a lot, just to see who are producing "counting stats" across the league.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/23/4/eff

Here is how he ranks among SFs in various categories.  When I look at this list, I correlate minutes played with production.  So in my mind, if you rank 5th in minutes, you should have some stats that rank you 5th or higher in that category.

92 SFs eligible

• Minutes: 31.8 . .  ( 19th ) . . . so now let's see how many categories he ranks 19th or higher among SFs

 

• Points:   ( 16th )
• Rebounds:  ( 25th )
• Assists:  ( 39th )
• Steals:  ( 50th )
• Blocks:  ( 59th )
• FG%:  ( 40th ) . . ( 33rd if I take out players who haven't played more than 25 games )
• 3FG%:  ( 37th ) . . ( 33rd of taking out players playing less than 25 games )
• Efficiency:  ( 22nd )

 

So the question is . . . what does Dre d well that impacts winning?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Not sure the last sentence is necessary but i agree with the rest of it.

I'm tired of watching guys we hate on around here go to teams and make them much better.  

 

Name some that have done so AND have made their new team better, just for context.

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Hunter is a slightly above average player, mainly because there's not one thing that he does at a high level.  He's been very efficient in the past 9 games ( 16 ppg on 52% FG and 40% 3FG ).  But when was the last time you've said . . . "De'Andre's overall play in this game was the difference in this game?"

He, more than anyone else on this team, could improve our team dramatically if he was able to take that next step as a player, especially on the defensive end ( where he's overrated by this fan base ). 

This is a site that I reference a lot, just to see who are producing "counting stats" across the league.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/23/4/eff

Here is how he ranks among SFs in various categories.  When I look at this list, I correlate minutes played with production.  So in my mind, if you rank 5th in minutes, you should have some stats that rank you 5th or higher in that category.

92 SFs eligible

• Minutes: 31.8 . .  ( 19th ) . . . so now let's see how many categories he ranks 19th or higher among SFs

 

• Points:   ( 16th )
• Rebounds:  ( 25th )
• Assists:  ( 39th )
• Steals:  ( 50th )
• Blocks:  ( 59th )
• FG%:  ( 40th ) . . ( 33rd if I take out players who haven't played more than 25 games )
• 3FG%:  ( 37th ) . . ( 33rd of taking out players playing less than 25 games )
• Efficiency:  ( 22nd )

 

So the question is . . . what does Dre d well that impacts winning?

Three level scorer 

Can draw fouls

One of the most defensively versatile players in the NBA. 

Excellent lateral quickness for size

7'2 wingspan

6'8 228

Strong

Can defend 4 positions plus big wings. 

 

To answer your question? A lot