Official Game Thread: Nets at Hawks

[Spud2nique]

17 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Paolo that's a 'superstar'?

Guessing the younger Wag and the example he sets. 

[Spud2nique]

17 hours ago, macdaddy said:

It's a risk taking league.  We aren't taking any.  

Agreed. We been sitting on this hand for a minute but it’s not like we got an Utah Jazz Stockton Malone pairing we gotta keep making some moves, our roster isn’t balanced. We need:

A huge body: like a Val or Zubac, forget the rebounding their bodies are so wide Trae would have 4 days to shoot off a screen.

Energizing vets (young vets not old types on the last leg

 

We aren’t far off just a tweak here and there.

[Spud2nique]

17 hours ago, kg01 said:

I think we OVER-emphasized skill over will.  

You sayin you want my Trez  

[ABH]

18 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Who would you like?

For who or what?  Then what is your plan?

U could trade for one of the best players in the league and when they come here they would also be cursed

[Spud2nique]

17 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

in the early season.

They will flop watch -Outsider hatin early  

[Spud2nique]

15 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

No one in the world thought Hali would break out the way he did this year, not to the extent he has. Hindsight is 20/20.

@Gray Mule you still from this world right? #wise

[Spud2nique]

17 hours ago, kg01 said:

Agreed.  2nd time this week we've agreed, supes.  That can't be good.

[Atlantaholic]

12 hours ago, terrell said:

lol nobody wanted KYrie..

And KIdd aint that great

Most Mavs fans wanted him gone last year..

But I feel you on Trae..

Our team building around him has been horrible..

 

And guess what? Dalla ain't that great either. Luka is the second coming of James Harden, their offense of everyone standing in by the three point line while Luka dribbles the air out of the ball is not gonna give them a championship, ever. 

[Final_quest]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't disagree with you.. but I think that there's something that is not being stated that needs to be said.

We have failed to capitalize on trades.  We have traded like a lottery team.

1. Cam Trade - We got nothing. 
2. Kev Trade - We got nothing. 
3. JC Trade - We got nothing. 

When you mix that... with drafting guys who are slow to develop like Dre, OO, AJ, and Bufkin...  Yeah... we have stumbled hard.

But there's hope...

• JJ is here. 
• DJ is a good player and he is here. 
• Sidiq is a good offensive player. 
• Clint still is holding down our defense and is a good defensive piece in this league. 
• Lundy and Gueye have great potential for the future. 

The sky is not completely fallen as some of you suppose.  I want to see Orl, Dallas, and Sacramento at the end of the season because 20 games in, some of yall are tripping. 

 

 

This is a pet peeve of mine.  How do we keep saying we got nothing for Cam and Huerter?  They weren't worth more than a first round pick.  We offloaded the Charlotte pick from NY before it became worthless.

The trade for Murray was essentially Cam, Huerter, Gallo's expiring and a pick for Murray.  Ya'll just got hung up on the order of the moves.  If Huerter was part of the trade to get Murray directly, the move would have been applauded.  

[AHF]

19 hours ago, Final_quest said:

I love everything you are saying, except the last line.  

Initial risk was to accelerate the talent level on a top 8 lottery team by adding Capela, Bogi, and Gallo.  Next risk was trading a bunch of draft capital for a guy who was supposed to address our two main flaws: point of attack defense and offense creation apart from Trae.  

Last summer they made a pretty healthy attempt to bring in another allstar.  I think we are more than comfortable taking risks.  

I guess it is a matter of what is considered a risk.  Spending the same amount of money on different players is to me not much real risk.  That is just adjusting your roster which is perfectly fine.  The problem is we’ve lost a lot of depth and talent since we reached the ECF as we spend the same amount and increase the number of near useless players on the roster since their meager salaries allow us to maintain the same overall salary commitment.  When we put ourselves at risk of changing that paradigm is where I will feel we have truly anted up and are genuinely ready to accept risk.  Maybe we did that this summer before we traded JC but color me skeptical for all the reasons we’ve already discussed.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

This is a pet peeve of mine.  How do we keep saying we got nothing for Cam and Huerter?  They weren't worth more than a first round pick.  We offloaded the Charlotte pick from NY before it became worthless.

The trade for Murray was essentially Cam, Huerter, Gallo's expiring and a pick for Murray.  Ya'll just got hung up on the order of the moves.  If Huerter was part of the trade to get Murray directly, the move would have been applauded.  

The Cam trade was excellent value in retrospect.  The “we got no value for him” for me speaks to how big of a let down he was from expectations so that the ultimate return was de minimize compared to the original expectation (of a starter quality, standout defender at the 2).  
 

I have issues with the Huerter trade we’ve discussed at length but I do acknowledge that a first round pick at the time we traded him was not the worst return.  The immediate “help” to the roster was probably the worst possible return, though, since that future rookie may not be ready to contribute for 3-4 years from the date of the trade.

[macdaddy]

18 hours ago, Final_quest said:

That says nothing of risk.  Also, Lou Will in his twilight years is a vet min type of acquisition.  

In each of the past 3 years we've also had first round draft picks.  How many teams play their first round draft picks?  Most.  So why don't any of our picks count as an acquisition?  

The core that we signed 3 years ago had just taken us to the ECF.  Most teams who make it that far hope to just retain their talent.  That's what we did.  It didn't leave us much room to take more of a risk than Murray last year.  So we've added Murray, Bey, and 3 first round picks.  

I still don't see what the basis is for saying we're not willing to take risks?  If we signed a player to an MLE deal, which is about all we could have done, is that even what you consider to be a risk?

I think if you look at what teams like ours have done the last three years you'll see way more of an effort to add talent.  Our picks don't count as an acquisition because for the most part they don't play.  You can't get rid of a vet rotation player and say you 'replaced' him with a draft pick if the pick never plays.  The majority of our free agent signings the last three years just sit on the bench and then are generally out of the league.  They are washed, fill out the bench guys.  That's not risk.  That's a league requirement met. 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team that's doing well that's done less than we have to add talent. 

 

 

 

[Final_quest]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

I guess it is a matter of what is considered a risk.  Spending the same amount of money on different players is to me not much real risk.  That is just adjusting your roster which is perfectly fine.  The problem is we’ve lost a lot of depth and talent since we reached the ECF as we spend the same amount and increase the number of near useless players on the roster since their meager salaries allow us to maintain the same overall salary commitment.  When we put ourselves at risk of changing that paradigm is where I will feel we have truly anted up and are genuinely ready to accept risk.  Maybe we did that this summer before we traded JC but color me skeptical for all the reasons we’ve already discussed.

We had multiple guys on rookie contracts that transitioned to extremely large and expensive contracts.  To expect us to be able to keep the same amount of veterans and same quality of veterans would only make sense if you were getting better results.  

Two years ago when everyone was convinced we had a super team, I was the chicken little saying we actually need to upgrade the talent.  The front office did what most of you guys wanted.  My trade proposal for a guy like Sabonis would have meant saving two salaries that are keeping us mediocre.  That is the actual move we missed on. 

Now we could compound our mistake by propping up a team without enough star power while also overpaying for role players to spend over the tax line.  Wait and be patient.  Or blow the team up.  Keeping Huerter devalues him as an ineffective bench player where you now have to sit Bogi or Bey to play Huerter.  Plus you don't have an extra first round pick for a trade this season or a pick next year.   

The risk we took was in resigning and extending nearly the entire roster.  Then the next risk was Murray.  Honestly seems like neither risk worked for us, but they were risks. 

Suggesting that paying over the cap for Delon Wright or someone similar as the big risk we should have taken is missing the forest.  To me it shows a lack of understanding where we actually took big risks.  Once you miss on the big shot, you don't win a game by hitting a layup with 2 seconds left down by 5 points.  We now have to reposition to be able to hit on another big shot.  Having a ton of guys that don't move the needle signed to big contracts doesn't position you to take the shot you want to take.  There's no victory in paying a tax if you don't get a high level team out of it.

[Final_quest]

28 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I think if you look at what teams like ours have done the last three years you'll see way more of an effort to add talent.  Our picks don't count as an acquisition because for the most part they don't play.  You can't get rid of a vet rotation player and say you 'replaced' him with a draft pick if the pick never plays.  The majority of our free agent signings the last three years just sit on the bench and then are generally out of the league.  They are washed, fill out the bench guys.  That's not risk.  That's a league requirement met. 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a team that's doing well that's done less than we have to add talent. 

 

 

 

Our picks did play.  You can't fix overpaying to extend and pay guys as stars by also spending on role players that don't make much impact.   

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The majority of our free agent signings the last three years just sit on the bench and then are generally out of the league.  They are washed, fill out the bench guys.  That's not risk.  That's a league requirement met. 

Here are our guys from our ECF outside of the top 8 in minutes played (our top 8 were Trae, Huerter, JC, Cap, Solo, Bogi and Snell who were all key members of the rotation at the very least):

Cam Reddish - Lottery pick hurt during the year but started 21 of the 26 games he played

DeAndre Hunter - Lottery pick hurt during the year but started 19 of the 23 games he played

Brandon Goodwin - Defensive backup PG averaging 13 points, 5 assists, and 4 rebounds per 36

Onyeka Okangwu - Lottery pick hurt some but promising talent and strong defender in the playoffs against Giannis and others

Lou Williams - Instant offense off the bench.  Bad some nights, wins you the game some nights.  Ideally a break in case of emergency player who can swing the result of the game.

Rajon Rondo - Proven veteran who had a bad attitude and didn't live up to expectations of being an important rotation player

Nathan Knight - Put up a nice 16 points and 9 rebounds per 36 over his time in 33 games

Skyler Mays - Put up a nice 17 points, 5 rebounds and 4 assists per 36 in his time in 33 games

Bruno Fernando - Bench big who averaged 8 points and 12 rebounds per 36 in his time in 33 games

 

Here are our guys this year who are outside of the top 8 in minutes played:

Wesley Matthews - Giving an ugly 8 points on 33% FG%, 4 rebounds, and 2 assists per 36 as the top guy outside of the top 8

AJ - His 11 on 30% FG%, 4 and 1 per 36 belies some brutal shooting this season and looking generally lost on the court

Garrison Mathews - 8 points on 36% FG% and 5 rebounds per 36 is not great for a guy who is supposed to be a sniper

Trent Forest - 5 points on 25% FG% and 8 assists per 36; on pace to play 16 games this year

Bruno Fernando - 16 points on 33% shooting and 9 rebounds per 36; total 16 minutes

(Patty, Kobe and Mo have played 5 minutes or less total this season and so I'm not bothering with them)

 

 

Look at the difference in quality depth on these teams.  Most of our players outside of the top 8 this season are primarily here for their offense and they have been terrible on offense in very limited minutes.    Do you think we make the ECF with this kind of depth?  I don't think that for a second.

 

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Suggesting that paying over the cap for Delon Wright or someone similar as the big risk we should have taken is missing the forest. 

Stating the issue this way is missing the facts.  We could absorb Delon's salary right now and still be under the tax line.  We just are choosing not to have that kind of depth to save $$ and give us more flexibility to do bigger moves and remain under the tax line. 

21 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

We had multiple guys on rookie contracts that transitioned to extremely large and expensive contracts.  To expect us to be able to keep the same amount of veterans and same quality of veterans would only make sense if you were getting better results.  

We might have better results if we had better depth.  There is a chicken and egg thing going on as well.

[Final_quest]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm all ears - who would the bad salary player be and which impact player.  But it all comes down to Ressler's willingness to get into the tax by using the TPE.

Here's an idea.  We use the TPE with Portland.  Take on both Thybulle and Robert Williams with the TPE.  Then we trade Hunter and Patty Mills for Jerami Grant.  

You completely change the defensive identity of your franchise while not hurting the offense.  This give Portland about $30M off their cap next year.  

It sounds like the same question from two years ago, "Who would we get?"  while promptly waiting to minimize any suggestion I made.  BTW all four guys I circled as talent upgrades two years ago have either already been traded or trade looks imminent with Lavine.  They were valid options where I at least identified some of the most attainable high impact players.  

To hopefully make this a productive thought exercise I'll ask.  Who is a better fit and talent than Jerami Grant?  I'll add a qualification someone we have reason to believe would take little in the way of assets to trade for them?  You have to find a salary dump where we benefit.  That's a tough find. 

[JayBirdHawk]

25 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Here's an idea.  We use the TPE with Portland.  Take on both Thybulle and Robert Williams with the TPE.  Then we trade Hunter and Patty Mills for Jerami Grant.  

That's not a bad idea (*Robert Williams is out for the remainder of the season though).

As usual it's all up to Ressler to use the TPE. Do you think he will use it THIS SEASON?

I don't think he will, it will probably be used at the end of the season in June 2024 but before it expires next July. I would love to be wrong.

 

[terrell]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

And guess what? Dalla ain't that great either. Luka is the second coming of James Harden, their offense of everyone standing in by the three point line while Luka dribbles the air out of the ball is not gonna give them a championship, ever. 

Hopefully youre right...lol

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Here's an idea.  We use the TPE with Portland.  Take on both Thybulle and Robert Williams with the TPE.  Then we trade Hunter and Patty Mills for Jerami Grant.  

You completely change the defensive identity of your franchise while not hurting the offense.  This give Portland about $30M off their cap next year.  

It sounds like the same question from two years ago, "Who would we get?"  while promptly waiting to minimize any suggestion I made.  BTW all four guys I circled as talent upgrades two years ago have either already been traded or trade looks imminent with Lavine.  They were valid options where I at least identified some of the most attainable high impact players.  

To hopefully make this a productive thought exercise I'll ask.  Who is a better fit and talent than Jerami Grant?  I'll add a qualification someone we have reason to believe would take little in the way of assets to trade for them?  You have to find a salary dump where we benefit.  That's a tough find. 

This is a really interesting idea and would give both a shakeup to the current roster and some interesting pieces for next year and going forward.  (I like Williams a lot as our big center next season).