Official Game Thread: Hawks at Pacers

[sturt]

42 minutes ago, kg01 said:

How could it objectively be argued?  Somebody tell me. 

*cough* *cough* *cough* *cough*

 

 

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hunter has a slow lumbering release, his size allows him to get the shot off but he's never going to be a lights out shooter with that slow release. 

He honestly hasnt looked the same since his knee injury last year.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[terrell]

5 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

44-34 not counting playoffs. 50-41 counting playoffs. 

Also a lot of the Ls this year (15-14 this year without Hunter) came during the Covid weeks. If we take out the games everyone was on the bench or at home we are like four games over five hundred this year without hunter. 

Hawks are now 17-8 without John Collins since Nate took over.. Excluding the 2-3 mark during covid without him...

[terrell]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Jalen Johnson:

2 games, 41 minutes, 11-17 (0-6 from 3) for 23 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 block

 

Kevin Knox:

13 games, 83 minutes, 7-28 (1-15 from 3) for 21 points, 17 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 0 blocks

 

Every last minute one of those 83 minutes should have gone to Jalen.

 

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

 

[terrell]

6 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

ALL THIS^^^.

Sometimes we just needed a lift and some energy - just run the floor, jump higher etc.

I've been screaming we need some fkn athletes on this team for the longest.. smh 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Jalen Johnson:

2 games, 41 minutes, 11-17 (0-6 from 3) for 23 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 block

 

Kevin Knox:

13 games, 83 minutes, 7-28 (1-15 from 3) for 21 points, 17 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 0 blocks

 

Every last minute one of those 83 minutes should have gone to Jalen.

 

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

I will stand up for Knox right here...

Just about the stats...  Because Jalen is a better player than Knox.

BUT

These stats are trash.  Jalen collected his minutes, playing with some starters and 2nd unit players for consistently over 20 minutes per game.   Knox collected those 83 minutes.. mostly playing those 2 minutes that Nate would let the 3rd Unit come in for garbage time.  You dont have to build strawmen to make a case for Jalen.  Jalen should be playing for no other reason than we don't have a PF but him right now and he has done well.   However, Strawman trash like this seems like desperation and would make somebody really question Jalen. 

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I will stand up for Knox right here...

Just about the stats...  Because Jalen is a better player than Knox.

BUT

These stats are trash.  Jalen collected his minutes, playing with some starters and 2nd unit players for consistently over 20 minutes per game.   Knox collected those 83 minutes.. mostly playing those 2 minutes that Nate would let the 3rd Unit come in for garbage time.  You dont have to build strawmen to make a case for Jalen.  Jalen should be playing for no other reason than we don't have a PF but him right now and he has done well.   However, Strawman trash like this seems like desperation and would make somebody really question Jalen. 

No.

This is about coming in and making an IMPACT!  Knox had several opportunities to play early in some of our games.

These are two games where Knox wasn't the garbage man and the end of a game.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Here's where I disagree and where he could have gotten SPOT minutes (not necessarily part of the regular rotation):

 

5. The biggest by far was any minutes (all 83 minutes) given to No-Knox should have gone to Jalen

 

 

I know this is a sore point for you... But I must challenge it...

Here's No-Knox Minutes since he's been a Hawk:

G	Date	Age	Tm		Opp		GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
41	12	2022-01-10	22-152	NYK		SAS	W (+15)	0	3:49	0	1	.000	0	1	.000	0	0		0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	0	-2.1	-8
42	13	2022-01-12	22-154	NYK		DAL	W (+23)	0	1:13	0	1	.000	0	1	.000	0	0		1	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	-1
43		2022-01-14	22-156	ATL	@	MIA	L (-6)	Inactive
44		2022-01-15	22-157	ATL		NYK	L (-9)	Did Not Play
45		2022-01-17	22-159	ATL		MIL	W (+7)	Did Not Play
46	14	2022-01-19	22-161	ATL		MIN	W (+12)	0	3:16	1	2	.500	0	1	.000	0	0		0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	1.0	0
47	15	2022-01-21	22-163	ATL		MIA	W (+2)	0	14:56	1	2	.500	1	2	.500	0	0		0	1	1	0	0	0	1	2	3	0.5	+5
48	16	2022-01-23	22-165	ATL	@	CHO	W (+22)	0	11:22	2	6	.333	0	4	.000	0	0		0	3	3	1	1	0	0	0	4	3.2	+1
49	17	2022-01-26	22-168	ATL		SAC	W (+17)	0	3:46	0	2	.000	0	2	.000	0	0		0	1	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	-0.4	-6
50	18	2022-01-28	22-170	ATL		BOS	W (+16)	0	1:35	0	0		0	0		0	0		0	1	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	-0.7	+1
51		2022-01-30	22-172	ATL		LAL	W (+8)	Did Not Play
52		2022-01-31	22-173	ATL		TOR	L (-6)	Did Not Play
53		2022-02-03	22-176	ATL		PHO	W (+9)	Did Not Play
54		2022-02-04	22-177	ATL	@	TOR	L (-11)	Did Not Play
55		2022-02-06	22-179	ATL	@	DAL	L (-9)	Did Not Play
56	19	2022-02-08	22-181	ATL		IND	W (+21)	0	6:50	1	3	.333	0	1	.000	0	0		0	1	1	1	0	0	0	1	2	0.9	-5
57	20	2022-02-11	22-184	ATL		SAS	L (-15)	0	4:12	1	1	1.000	0	0		0	0		0	1	1	1	0	0	0	0	2	2.7	+9
58		2022-02-13	22-186	ATL	@	BOS	L (-10)	Did Not Play
59		2022-02-15	22-188	ATL		CLE	W (+8)	Did Not Play
60	21	2022-02-16	22-189	ATL	@	ORL	W (+21)	0	10:58	0	5	.000	0	1	.000	3	4	.750	3	2	5	1	0	0	0	3	3	1.3	-7
Rk	G	Date	Age	Tm		Opp		GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	GmSc	+/-
61	22	2022-02-24	22-197	ATL	@	CHI	L (-4)	0	6:21	1	1	1.000	0	0		0	0		0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	2	1.3	-4
62	23	2022-02-26	22-199	ATL		TOR	W (+27)	0	5:17	0	1	.000	0	1	.000	1	2	.500	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	-0.1	0
63		2022-03-01	22-202	ATL	@	BOS	L (-9)	Did Not Play
64		2022-03-03	22-204	ATL		CHI	W (+6)	Did Not Play
65		2022-03-04	22-205	ATL	@	WAS	W (+3)	Did Not Play
66		2022-03-07	22-208	ATL	@	DET	L (-3)	Did Not Play
67		2022-03-09	22-210	ATL	@	MIL	L (-9)	Did Not Play
68		2022-03-11	22-212	ATL		LAC	W (+6)	Did Not Play
69		2022-03-13	22-214	ATL		IND	W (+3)	Did Not Play
70	24	2022-03-14	22-215	ATL		POR	W (+9)	0	6:32	0	3	.000	0	1	.000	0	0		2	1	3	1	0	0	0	0	0	0.3	-3
71		2022-03-16	22-217	ATL	@	CHO	L (-10)	Did Not Play
72	25	2022-03-18	22-219	ATL		MEM	W (+15)	0	1:29	0	1	.000	0	1	.000	0	0		0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	-2
73		2022-03-20	22-221	ATL		NOP	L (-5)	Did Not Play
74		2022-03-22	22-223	ATL	@	NYK	W (+6)	Did Not Play
75	26	2022-03-23	22-224	ATL	@	DET	L (-21)	0	6:07	0	1	.000	0	1	.000	2	2	1.000	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	1	2	1.2	+2
76		2022-03-25	22-226	ATL		GSW	W (+11)	Did Not Play
77		2022-03-28	22-229	ATL	@	IND	W (+9)	Did Not Play

 

 

When he first got here... We played him heavy minutes a few times.  Why?  As a coach, you have to see what you got.   However, after that...  Spot minutes.. (Garbage Minutes).   The last time we played the Pacers, he got about 7 minutes.  We beat Toronto by 27... he got 5 minutes.  Jalen got 3 minutes in that game.   We beat Portland by 9, he got 6:32.   We beat Memphis by 15, he got 1:29.  We loss to Detroit by 21, he got 6 Minutes... Jalen got 24 Minutes. You can tabulate all those garbage minutes up and say that No-Knox should have given them all to Jalen...  I say.. aside from the 33 Minutes that Nate played him when he first got here, which of those minutes were actually meaningful and which of those minutes did he collect when Jalen was not on the floor too?

Strawman.

 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No.

This is about coming in and making an IMPACT!  Knox had several opportunities to play early in some of our games.

These are two games where Knox wasn't the garbage man and the end of a game.

Those are the only two times that Knox didn't play Garbage minutes. Strangly enough... we beat Miami and we beat Charlotte by 22???  however, after those showing is nothing but Garbarge minutes... and well, he probably should have been playing GT.

Here's the other thing...  Why are you not praising the G-League??

Here's a few games that Jalen played earlier:

29		2021-12-17	19-364	ATL		DEN	L (-18)	Inactive
30	8	2021-12-22	20-004	ATL		ORL	L (-6)	0	10:36	1	3	.333	0	1	.000	2	4	.500	0	1	1	1	0	0	0	1	4	2.1	-8
31	9	2021-12-23	20-005	ATL	@	PHI	W (+2)	0	4:35	0	1	.000	0	0		0	0		0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	-1.1	-6
32	10	2021-12-25	20-007	ATL	@	NYK	L (-14)	0	15:13	2	3	.667	0	1	.000	0	0		0	7	7	0	0	0	2	1	4	2.4	+7
33		2021-12-27	20-009	ATL		CHI	L (-12)

 

Back in December... while we were all sick and stuff.   He played.  Honestly when he played in December, Jalen didn't look so good.  His awareness was bad.  Nate sent him to the G-League and he got confidence.  Learned to be effective.  And now, he looked good against the Pacers playing with the first squad.  You have no praise for the G-League?  You think that his time was wasted in the G-League?  I hear all this commentary about how Nate wasted time not playing Jalen No-Knox's Garbage Minutes... so that equates to his time in the G-League didn't help him at all or at least not as much as playing those garbage minutes would have.  Is that the consensus?  Because My opinion is that the guy I saw back in December would have taken a long time to get to the place he is now. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I know this is a sore point for you... But I must challenge it...

Here's No-Knox Minutes since he's been a Hawk:

When he first got here... We played him heavy minutes a few times.  Why?  As a coach, you have to see what you got.   However, after that...  Spot minutes.. (Garbage Minutes).   The last time we played the Pacers, he got about 7 minutes.  We beat Toronto by 27... he got 5 minutes.  Jalen got 3 minutes in that game.   We beat Portland by 9, he got 6:32.   We beat Memphis by 15, he got 1:29.  We loss to Detroit by 21, he got 6 Minutes... Jalen got 24 Minutes. You can tabulate all those garbage minutes up and say that No-Knox should have given them all to Jalen...  I say.. aside from the 33 Minutes that Nate played him when he first got here, which of those minutes were actually meaningful and which of those minutes did he collect when Jalen was not on the floor too?

Strawman.

 

You can keep saying Strawman, doesn't change this: whatever garbage minutes he got should have gone to Jalen.  IMPACT AND POSITIVE plays in his first 4 minutes last night - that's what you want to see - 6 points 1 rebound 1 steal

Knox gave us nothing even in his non-garbage minutes when he played in the 1st half of games.  Not one memorable play in his Hawks stint for a guy that has been in the league 4 years.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

You can keep saying Strawman, doesn't change this: whatever garbage minutes he got should have gone to Jalen.  IMPACT AND POSITIVE plays in his first 4 minutes last night - that's what you want to see - 6 points 1 rebound 1 steal

Knox gave us nothing even in his non-garbage minutes when he played in the 1st half of games.  Not one memorable play in his Hawks stint for a guy that has been in the league 4 years.

You missed my first statement.  Jalen is better than Knox.  However, My point is that the argument from a statistical standpoint is bad.  If you think I'm arguing that Knox is better than Jalen... you can save that.. I'm saying that you guys who are making these arguments for Jalen have faulty basis.  Knox Played 2 GAMES  of competitive minutes.  2.. The rest were garbage minutes when the game was out of reach one way or the other. 

Let me help you see it.... by using a similar argument.

Recently Jalen has played 83 minutes and they are the biggest waste because he is 0-6 from three. 

This season Dieng is 28 of 62 from three.  He is our best three point shooter.  Yet all he plays is garbage time.   We should have given him those 83 minutes and he would have shot the other team out of the gym.

Do you see it?  I don't have to use the small sample set of Jalen playing or Dieng playing to make a case for Dieng.  It's just as silly as suggesting that we take garbage minutes (some of which Jalen was on the floor also) and given them to Jalen.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You missed my first statement.  Jalen is better than Knox.  However, My point is that the argument from a statistical standpoint is bad.  If you think I'm arguing that Knox is better than Jalen... you can save that.. I'm saying that you guys who are making these arguments for Jalen have faulty basis.  Knox Played 2 GAMES  of competitive minutes.  2.. The rest were garbage minutes when the game was out of reach one way or the other. 

Let me help you see it.... by using a similar argument.

Recently Jalen has played 83 minutes and they are the biggest waste because he is 0-6 from three. 

This season Dieng is 28 of 62 from three.  He is our best three point shooter.  Yet all he plays is garbage time.   We should have given him those 83 minutes and he would have shot the other team out of the gym.

Do you see it?  I don't have to use the small sample set of Jalen playing or Dieng playing to make a case for Dieng.  It's just as silly as suggesting that we take garbage minutes (some of which Jalen was on the floor also) and given them to Jalen.

Not similar at all - are we developing Dieng for the future?

[Diesel]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Not similar at all - are we developing Dieng for the future?

That's not the point.  The point is that the argument is flawed... That's a rabbit hole about Dieng being the best three point shooter on the team.

But back to development.  

You never said anything about the value of G-League for Jalen and Coop?  Do you think that G-League was a waste of his time?

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's not the point.  The point is that the argument is flawed... That's a rabbit hole about Dieng being the best three point shooter on the team.

But back to development.  

You never said anything about the value of G-League for Jalen and Coop?  Do you think that G-League was a waste of his time?

Why would I - I'm not having a GLeague discussion.

I have said I would have liked to see EVERY SINGLE minute that Knox played go to Jalen (as long as he was sitting on the Hawks bench).....and I stand by it.

[Diesel]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Why would I - I'm not having a GLeague discussion.

I have said I would have liked to see EVERY SINGLE minute that Knox played go to Jalen (as long as he was sitting on the Hawks bench).....and I stand by it.

Well, if Jalen never goes to G-League he probably stinks up the Knox Garbage minutes just as much as Knox did.   You can't have one without the other.  We all saw him in December. 

 

[Diesel]

You know with all the vilifying that goes on about Nate and Jalen... nobody ever mentions this:

Hawks' Jalen Johnson chose to stay in G League to develop

 

Where Nate said this:

Quote

I think he is a young player that has a lot of skill. His ability to handle the ball, play with the ball, score, shoot the ball. He certainly can play the four but I think he can eventually be able to play some five in this league. He is just a very skillful player that you can put at several different positions.

"With playing time at a minimum in the NBA, Johnson has had the opportunity to stay sharp with the Skyhawks and continue working on his game. He is certainly making his mark in the G League and taking full advantage of the opportunity.

His willingness to stay with College Park to log extended playing time certainly shows the level of maturity he brings to the team. It looks as though he will stay in the G League but should be fully ready to contribute once his number is called in the NBA."

[macdaddy]

Both things can (and are) true.   Jalen needed the G league development AND we should have started getting him minutes a month or two ago.   

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

You know with all the vilifying that goes on about Nate and Jalen... nobody ever mentions this:

Hawks' Jalen Johnson chose to stay in G League to develop

 

Where Nate said this:

"With playing time at a minimum in the NBA, Johnson has had the opportunity to stay sharp with the Skyhawks and continue working on his game. He is certainly making his mark in the G League and taking full advantage of the opportunity.

His willingness to stay with College Park to log extended playing time certainly shows the level of maturity he brings to the team. It looks as though he will stay in the G League but should be fully ready to contribute once his number is called in the NBA."

You keep missing the point - In games where he was on the HAWKS bench and had opportunities to play even in garbage minutes - I wanted him to play instead of Knox.

[Diesel]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

You keep missing the point - In games where he was on the HAWKS bench and had opportunities to play even in garbage minutes - I wanted him to play instead of Knox.

Did you consider Jalen's injury history when you framed that argument?

Covid - Late Dec.

Ankle Sprain - middish Jan. (2 weeks)

Lower Body injury (unstated Left Glute strain)  Mid Feb. - One game on the 12th and we called him up while he was still injured. 

And the two occasions (Dec, Feb) that he was called up and requested to go back.

Now.. .I didn't match up the dates with the dates that No-Knox had garbage minutes... but on the surface your hard stance sounds good.  But when you look deeper (and I didn't match up those times he was on the floor with No-Knox but we both watch and you know that there are some times he was out there)... it just doesn't make a lot of sense.  I don't even think he would have been able to play any of the competitive minutes that No-Knox played because of the ankle sprain.  So we talking straight Garbage minutes.  There's a better argument for Hunter's minutes.  Let Hunter go somewhere and heal up or man up.