Official Playoff Game Thread: Hawks at heat -- GAME 5

[AHF]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

LMAO! No. I've been watching him since he was playing for MOKAN. He never could play off the ball. Even for Team USA, he was bad at it and was terrible. Y'all want Trae to be who y'all want him to be instead of who he is. 

He is terrible off the ball career to date.  No doubt about that.  Doesn’t have a natural talent for where to be or what to be doing when the ball isn’t in his hands.  The easiest way to get better results would be to have specific plays where he is running off of (real) screens but we don’t do that at all.  Until Nate puts some structure around Trae’s off ball play, I have a hard time seeing this improve.  Obviously, Nate did not put any effort during games into implementing that structure and getting Trae and the rest of the team in a flow for how to attack the defense with Trae off the ball.  
 

Structure and time spent focusing on it are needed if Nate expects this to be a real part of our offense.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

The question becomes whether or not Hunter's game was a Reddish moment or sign of things to come.

I'm a Hunter fan, despite what some probably think, but I'm hoping that game means we can sell high on an established star via trade.

There were extreme circumstances.   i.e. the midrange was open.   BUT... regardless of whatever it was, it does show that he is capable. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

And just so folks don't assume I'm raining on the parade, I say let it play out on paper.  Say it was a sign of development and not just a blip.  Ok, the next step is him doing it when the defense expects it and plans for it.

That's a huge chasm to cross.  And, to cross it, he's gonna have to be able to handle significantly better than he seems capable of.  That's not a one offseason fix, most likely.  So the 'move' is still to sell high.

Am I wrong there?

I'm on board with a lot of this in terms of Hunter needing to consistently step up to demonstrate that he has truly elevated his game to a new level and having things like rebounding, deflections and ballhandling to work on but I'm not sold that the move is to trade him. 

The move is always to trade a player if we get sufficient value in return.  There isn't a player on this team I won't trade if prime MJ is the return.  So as I think about Hunter, the question becomes whether this is a sell high opportunity.

Hunter was very pedestrian over 53 games this season.  In the playoffs, he was solid in the first 4 games but not great.  He took advantage of space that Miami gave him to work to a tune of 17 ppg but when that is coupled with 2 rebounds, 0.25 assists, 0.25 steals and 0.25 blocks per game over the first 4 games I don't think that is going to excite a lot of other GMs.  So is Game 5 going to have someone ready to give us a star for him?  I'm highly skeptical of that.  If it gets offered then great but I don't think the table is set for that.

So I see him having a full, healthy offseason this year as a representing a higher upside opportunity for us to see big development than I do another GM being willing to pay a premium for him.  So if trade interest in  him is what I expect it to be, I don't expect that we will be able to extract a premium for him and would say my default expectation is to see if a full, healthy offseason can push him to the next level.  TS should discuss him in trade scenarios just like every other player on the roster but the offers will most likely mean the right move is to keep him and see what we have next season.

I think the worst case for Hunter is a useful two-way player who is a weak starter or a strong 6th man (Marvin is a good comparison for the worst case scenario).  The best case scenario is a lot better than that.  A 75% best case is something like Hunter getting better (not great) handles and passing; stepping up to 5-6 rebounds per game; keeping the ~38% 3pt shot and adding a more assertive, efficient brand of midrange scoring and penetration to his game.  Combining that with strong on ball defense and more active hands (he had more steals yesterday than blocks and steals combined before that one) and he could represent a very important piece of a good team.  The key for me in assessing whether the right move is to trade him is that I think he will be valued as a Marvin type player by other GMs.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Last year we peaked but again we are a young team that needs to go through our bumps in the road. That was a good tough lesson learned. This is part of it. 
 

Now our young guys will learn that games should never be “boring”. Play hard to get that home court in the playoffs.

Couple tweaks to the roster and I think we can be a top 4 team in the East again next year.

The East is incredibly Strong.  I agree with you and think that we are a sleeper cell.   The moves we make now must be really good though.   Cleveland is coming.  Charlotte may be coming.   And who knows if Orlando, Washington , or Indiana get an Ant Man...

Health and Depth is job 1 over here.   Talent is Job 1B. 

[Peoriabird]

It would be very dumb to trade Hunter now especially for a player like Paul George who is toward the end of his career and isn't a winner anyway.

[REHawksFan]

10 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

1. To use a line from my favorite movie The Shawshank Redemption: "Trae upped and vanished like a fart in the wind"  in this series. However, like he said sometimes you need to go through stuff to become better. (Credit Miami defense)

I agree that he was a complete non-factor in the series.  I guess where I'm stuck is in trying to figure how much credit legitimately needs to go to Spo and the Heat players vs how much blame goes to Trae (and Nate)? Was this just a situation where the Heat were able to completely eliminate our superstar's impact and we just simply had no answer for it?  Or did they frustrate him early on and then get him out of rhythm and out of sync for the rest of the series?  

It looked to me like Miami started out hell bent on taking him out of the game with traps and switches and never allowing him to get inside or get a clean look from outside.  But as the series went on, it looked like he was getting more looks from the perimeter but was so rushed that he couldn't hit anything. 

The thing that disappointed me the most was their inability to ever figure out how to get Trae going inside. He can live off the floater and mid range but he was never able to get that going. Maybe Trae was hurt. Maybe he wasn't. I have no idea. It almost seemed like the Heat broke him over the course of the series. Kinda like the Hawks broke Ben.  Not to that extreme obviously and I have no doubt he'll be better for it (unlike Ben), but it just seemed like Trae was way way out of character for him.  I would have expected in an elimination game that he would go out firing. 

Consider this: 

Trae's FGA by game - 12 / 20 / 14 / 11 / 12   

This from a dude that had only TWO games all year with as few as 12 attempts and only 6 with 12-14 attempts.  And he had 4 in 5 games?  Something was off.  Was it the incredible D?  Or was it Trae?  

 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

And one thing overlooked is our D was pretty good despite missing some key players.    Herro and Robinson didn't do much.  Basically Jimmy beat us but a lot of that was from the free throw line.  

Lies.  I was told no team with Trae can defense.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

There were extreme circumstances.   i.e. the midrange was open.   BUT... regardless of whatever it was, it does show that he is capable. 

One thing I love about this game is a few misses didn't deter him from continuing to assert himself.

Open 3ptA

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=39&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS Hunter 3PT Jump Shot&sct=plot

Got Space for Short Jumper

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=43&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS Hunter 9' Floating Jump Shot&sct=plot

Left Open from 3

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=191&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS Hunter 26' 3PT Step Back Jump Shot&sct=plot

Left Open in Midrange

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=205&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS Hunter 19' Pullup Jump Shot&sct=plot

 

After those misses, it could have been easy to lose confidence but he kept going to punish the space:

Drilled Open 3

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=219&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hunter 3PT Jump Shot (9 PTS) (Okongwu 1 AST)&sct=plot

Drilled Open FT Line Jumper

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=336&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hunter 15' Pullup Jump Shot (13 PTS) (Huerter 3 AST)&sct=plot

Left Open from 3 and Punishes Late Scramble to Challenge Him by Pumping and Walking to Open Mid-Range

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=342&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hunter 14' Pullup Jump Shot (15 PTS) (Young 3 AST)&sct=plot

Good Look at Open 3

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=521&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=MISS Hunter 24' 3PT Jump Shot&sct=plot

Drills the Open 3

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=536&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hunter 25' 3PT Jump Shot (20 PTS) (Wright 3 AST)&sct=plot

Punishes Refusal to Go Above the Screen By Drilling Open 3

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=634&GameID=0042100105&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Hunter 26' 3PT Pullup Jump Shot (33 PTS)&sct=plot

 

 

As his confidence grew, you saw him start taking his defender for some key buckets in the second half as well.  The links above are him doing exactly what you want when a team doesn't scheme for him and punishing it.  The plays where he took his man represent upside for what he can do even if a team tightly marks him.  

Very strong game from Hunter and I love that he did it by not allowing himself to get discouraged when he had some early misses.  Kept taking those good shots and started getting them to fall.  Kudos young buck.

 

 

[Diesel]

55 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is terrible off the ball career to date.  No doubt about that.  Doesn’t have a natural talent for where to be or what to be doing when the ball isn’t in his hands.  The easiest way to get better results would be to have specific plays where he is running off of (real) screens but we don’t do that at all.  Until Nate puts some structure around Trae’s off ball play, I have a hard time seeing this improve.  Obviously, Nate did not put any effort during games into implementing that structure and getting Trae and the rest of the team in a flow for how to attack the defense with Trae off the ball.  
 

Structure and time spent focusing on it are needed if Nate expects this to be a real part of our offense.

I don't think we can play Trae off the ball in a traditional sense.  He's not a come off of screen's shooter IMHO.  I would rather see us try more motion in our offense and to have a 2 guard who can score and handle the ball very well so that Trae doesn't always have the ball in his hands.   Our offense needs different looks.   Historical reference:

I would say either iteration of the Suns with Nash.

Nash/Joe Johnson

Nash/Boris Diaw

Nash/Dragic

D'Antoni outfitted an uptempo Phoenix team with good ball handlers and passers...

I think GS with Curry is too far of a push because he does come off of screens sometimes. 

 

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm on board with a lot of this in terms of Hunter needing to consistently step up to demonstrate that he has truly elevated his game to a new level and having things like rebounding, deflections and ballhandling to work on but I'm not sold that the move is to trade him. 

The move is always to trade a player if we get sufficient value in return.  There isn't a player on this team I won't trade if prime MJ is the return.  So as I think about Hunter, the question becomes whether this is a sell high opportunity.

Hunter was very pedestrian over 53 games this season.  In the playoffs, he was solid in the first 4 games but not great.  He took advantage of space that Miami gave him to work to a tune of 17 ppg but when that is coupled with 2 rebounds, 0.25 assists, 0.25 steals and 0.25 blocks per game over the first 4 games I don't think that is going to excite a lot of other GMs.  So is Game 5 going to have someone ready to give us a star for him?  I'm highly skeptical of that.  If it gets offered then great but I don't think the table is set for that.

So I see him having a full, healthy offseason this year as a representing a higher upside opportunity for us to see big development than I do another GM being willing to pay a premium for him.  So if trade interest in  him is what I expect it to be, I don't expect that we will be able to extract a premium for him and would say my default expectation is to see if a full, healthy offseason can push him to the next level.  TS should discuss him in trade scenarios just like every other player on the roster but the offers will most likely mean the right move is to keep him and see what we have next season.

I think the worst case for Hunter is a useful two-way player who is a weak starter or a strong 6th man (Marvin is a good comparison for the worst case scenario).  The best case scenario is a lot better than that.  A 75% best case is something like Hunter getting better (not great) handles and passing; stepping up to 5-6 rebounds per game; keeping the ~38% 3pt shot and adding a more assertive, efficient brand of midrange scoring and penetration to his game.  Combining that with strong on ball defense and more active hands (he had more steals yesterday than blocks and steals combined before that one) and he could represent a very important piece of a good team.  The key for me in assessing whether the right move is to trade him is that I think he will be valued as a Marvin type player by other GMs.

The thing about it.. going into the offseason, the thing about Hunter that will be remembered is this outburst against Miami's defense.   It puts his trade value up higher.   I say let's see what teams are willing to give.  

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I don't think we can play Trae off the ball in a traditional sense.  He's not a come off of screen's shooter IMHO.  I would rather see us try more motion in our offense and to have a 2 guard who can score and handle the ball very well so that Trae doesn't always have the ball in his hands.   Our offense needs different looks.   Historical reference:

I would say either iteration of the Suns with Nash.

Nash/Joe Johnson

Nash/Boris Diaw

Nash/Dragic

D'Antoni outfitted an uptempo Phoenix team with good ball handlers and passers...

I think GS with Curry is too far of a push because he does come off of screens sometimes. 

 

Trae will never, ever resemble Curry in terms of the amount of off-ball play in his game.  But I do think the Hawks could do some of it and have it as a viable alternative when teams "Jordan rules" him but they need to have structure and ways to punish the defenders who are chasing him.  Right now, far too much of Trae's "off-ball" game is standing still at the 3pt line waiting for a pass.  That is absolute garbage.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It would be very dumb to trade Hunter now especially for a player like Paul George who is toward the end of his career and isn't a winner anyway.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

The thing about it.. going into the offseason, the thing about Hunter that will be remembered is this outburst against Miami's defense.   It puts his trade value up higher.   I say let's see what teams are willing to give.  

I'm fine to see what teams are willing to give for any player on our roster.  I just don't think this will move the needle for Hunter's trade value and expect that we will be better off supporting his off-season development than we will be trying to capture a premium for him in a trade based on his outstanding game 5.  I think GMs are just going to focus on a much larger sample size than that game but I have no problem with TS listening to offers on any player.  I just don't think the value is going to be there for what I would need to feel like we got a good trade.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I agree that he was a complete non-factor in the series.  I guess where I'm stuck is in trying to figure how much credit legitimately needs to go to Spo and the Heat players vs how much blame goes to Trae (and Nate)? Was this just a situation where the Heat were able to completely eliminate our superstar's impact and we just simply had no answer for it?  Or did they frustrate him early on and then get him out of rhythm and out of sync for the rest of the series?  

It looked to me like Miami started out hell bent on taking him out of the game with traps and switches and never allowing him to get inside or get a clean look from outside.  But as the series went on, it looked like he was getting more looks from the perimeter but was so rushed that he couldn't hit anything. 

The thing that disappointed me the most was their inability to ever figure out how to get Trae going inside. He can live off the floater and mid range but he was never able to get that going. Maybe Trae was hurt. Maybe he wasn't. I have no idea. It almost seemed like the Heat broke him over the course of the series. Kinda like the Hawks broke Ben.  Not to that extreme obviously and I have no doubt he'll be better for it (unlike Ben), but it just seemed like Trae was way way out of character for him.  I would have expected in an elimination game that he would go out firing. 

Consider this: 

Trae's FGA by game - 12 / 20 / 14 / 11 / 12   

This from a dude that had only TWO games all year with as few as 12 attempts and only 6 with 12-14 attempts.  And he had 4 in 5 games?  Something was off.  Was it the incredible D?  Or was it Trae?  

 

First... I'm taking no consideration of possible injuries to Trae. 

Today, I've heard dumbass hot takes about how Ja and Luka has proven themselves better than Trae because of this showing... when neither Ja or Luka are facing a defense that's main focus is stopping them and both Ja and Luka have teams that have shown that they can win without them. 

Miami was hell bent on stopping Trae and they were successful.   2 or 3 guys in front of him at all times.  Swarming him as soon as he touched the ball.   Clogging every passing lane trae could have.   and BAM... not the phrase... Bam the guy.. he was like a Trae Hawk and he was looking to eat Trae. 

Part of it was lack of the right personnel to help us out of our situation.   We really don't have any other alpha scorers for them to be concerned with.   They were willing to concede whatever Kev, Bogi, or Hunter would give them.   In fact, you saw it in game 4, they started giving Bogi the same treatment that Trae was getting when Trae left the game. 

The lie is that they let up on Trae.  They did not.   They had a range for Trae with the ball.   He was single covered from the Logo to just about two steps away from the arc.. but as soon as he approached the arc, the three started coming for him.  Even in game 5.   If Trae tried to blow passed, they surrounded him in the paint.   It has been a long time since I have seen a team dedicated to stop 1 player.   I mean, you really have to go back to Jordan rules.   You haven't seen that with Kobe or Lebron. 

Where we made mistakes.....

• Trae normally dials up his mismatches on the switch.   Usually, it's the 1-5 PNR.  When Trae saw that every time he was dialing up Bam or Tucker he should have changed up... and we should have a 1-3 PNR.   That way he could dail up Struss or Robinson. 
• We need more plays for other players. Our offense doesn't look like we have plays.  No cuts.  No pin downs.   Nothing.  We become a perimeter shooting, iso team when Trae is not facilitating or scoring. 
• More development is needed for OO.   He has great potential   The baby hook will be a good weapon once he perfects it. 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Trae will never, ever resemble Curry in terms of the amount of off-ball play in his game.  But I do think the Hawks could do some of it and have it as a viable alternative when teams "Jordan rules" him but they need to have structure and ways to punish the defenders who are chasing him.  Right now, far too much of Trae's "off-ball" game is standing still at the 3pt line waiting for a pass.  That is absolute garbage.

The thing is Trae is a set shot shooter.  His best shot is the corner three.   Our offense lacks imagination to think of anything else to do with Trae. 

Our offense doesn't have:

• screens
• pin downs
• hand offs.  - Sheez we don't have hand offs.
• Fastbreaks

Basically, we don't move well without the ball.   No motion. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

The thing is Trae is a set shot shooter.  His best shot is the corner three.   Our offense lacks imagination to think of anything else to do with Trae. 

Our offense doesn't have:

• screens
• pin downs
• hand offs.  - Sheez we don't have hand offs.
• Fastbreaks

Basically, we don't move well without the ball.   No motion. 

He is elite when given space and allowed to take set shots but that isn't all he can do effectively.  I do agree with you that our offense lacks all of those things, though.  We need structure and purpose when Trae is off the ball to make him effective in that role.  If we don't, Trae off the ball will remain 'garbage in', 'garbage out.'  

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The thing is Trae is a set shot shooter.  His best shot is the corner three.   Our offense lacks imagination to think of anything else to do with Trae. 

Our offense doesn't have:

• screens
• pin downs
• hand offs.  - Sheez we don't have hand offs.
• Fastbreaks

Basically, we don't move well without the ball.   No motion. 

Our offense has a lot of screens but most of it's used for Trae and not for others like say the Suns where Ayton is screening for everyone. 

We used to have a lot of pinpoints under LP and even a few under Nate last year but it seemed to be removed this year. I would like to see that return. Kev was the pin down king.

We used to have a ton of handoffs but it was done so poorly under LP. We just didn't have the personnel and we still don't got it. 

We rarely get stops during the RS, you got to protect Trae, so you can't be overaggressive playing the passing lanes, and we don't have anyone even above average in transition. 

We move the ball but a lot of our play is drive, PnR, and kick outs. If you have the personnel to shut it down, you can shut us down.

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

First... I'm taking no consideration of possible injuries to Trae. 

Today, I've heard dumbass hot takes about how Ja and Luka has proven themselves better than Trae because of this showing... when neither Ja or Luka are facing a defense that's main focus is stopping them and both Ja and Luka have teams that have shown that they can win without them. 

Miami was hell bent on stopping Trae and they were successful.   2 or 3 guys in front of him at all times.  Swarming him as soon as he touched the ball.   Clogging every passing lane trae could have.   and BAM... not the phrase... Bam the guy.. he was like a Trae Hawk and he was looking to eat Trae. 

Part of it was lack of the right personnel to help us out of our situation.   We really don't have any other alpha scorers for them to be concerned with.   They were willing to concede whatever Kev, Bogi, or Hunter would give them.   In fact, you saw it in game 4, they started giving Bogi the same treatment that Trae was getting when Trae left the game. 

The lie is that they let up on Trae.  They did not.   They had a range for Trae with the ball.   He was single covered from the Logo to just about two steps away from the arc.. but as soon as he approached the arc, the three started coming for him.  Even in game 5.   If Trae tried to blow passed, they surrounded him in the paint.   It has been a long time since I have seen a team dedicated to stop 1 player.   I mean, you really have to go back to Jordan rules.   You haven't seen that with Kobe or Lebron. 

Where we made mistakes.....

• Trae normally dials up his mismatches on the switch.   Usually, it's the 1-5 PNR.  When Trae saw that every time he was dialing up Bam or Tucker he should have changed up... and we should have a 1-3 PNR.   That way he could dail up Struss or Robinson. 
• We need more plays for other players. Our offense doesn't look like we have plays.  No cuts.  No pin downs.   Nothing.  We become a perimeter shooting, iso team when Trae is not facilitating or scoring. 
• More development is needed for OO.   He has great potential   The baby hook will be a good weapon once he perfects it. 

 

 

 

 

Technically, we are an inside scoring team that scores efficiently from all over the floor but the common eye says we are a spammy team that uses its bigs movement to create for the shooters. I

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Technically, we are an inside scoring team that scores efficiently from all over the floor but the common eye says we are a spammy team that uses its bigs movement to create for the shooters. I

Definitely a challenge when the team is based around Trae and an inside partner running a two-man game and both JC and CC are unavailable to run that.  Kind of scrambling for a plan B.

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Definitely a challenge when the team is based around Trae and an inside partner running a two-man game and both JC and CC are unavailable to run that.  Kind of scrambling for a plan B.

I get the critcism of Trae.  He was really bad in this series but it's not like anyone stepped up other than Hunter for a game or two.  Honestly we could have used Lou to settle the offense.   He would have been at the line a lot.  

Trae wasn't right for whatever reason.  mental, physical, both or just got outplayed.   But he certainly wasn't trying to beat his guy the way he usually does and couldn't hit a shot to save his life.