Official Playoff Game Thread: Hawks at heat -- GAME 5

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I get the critcism of Trae.  He was really bad in this series but it's not like anyone stepped up other than Hunter for a game or two.  Honestly we could have used Lou to settle the offense.   He would have been at the line a lot.  

Trae wasn't right for whatever reason.  mental, physical, both or just got outplayed.   But he certainly wasn't trying to beat his guy the way he usually does and couldn't hit a shot to save his life.   

It was a disaster of a series for him.  Trae was given the "Jordan Rules" type of defensive attention (as D, Supes, and other have described it) and struggled hard.  No other way to say it.  He wasn't able to overcome that challenge and, even if he was injured during the series with an ankle roll or hit, he still was struggling before that happened.

I think some people have conflated comments about not having a plan B with the rest of the personnel as somehow saying that Trae played well or doesn't own his own struggles.  When Luka was out, Dallas' remaining players took over and won 2 of 3.  When Trae was neutralized, we definitely didn't see any similar adjustment emerge other than Hunter in game 5 (which we nearly won despite an ugly outing from Trae because of Hunter stepping up).

Part of this is scheme, part was us missing some key players, and part of it was personnel.  Miami had some advantages with the refs but they flat out outplayed us and effectively shut down Trae.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I agree that he was a complete non-factor in the series.  I guess where I'm stuck is in trying to figure how much credit legitimately needs to go to Spo and the Heat players vs how much blame goes to Trae (and Nate)? Was this just a situation where the Heat were able to completely eliminate our superstar's impact and we just simply had no answer for it?  Or did they frustrate him early on and then get him out of rhythm and out of sync for the rest of the series?  

It looked to me like Miami started out hell bent on taking him out of the game with traps and switches and never allowing him to get inside or get a clean look from outside.  But as the series went on, it looked like he was getting more looks from the perimeter but was so rushed that he couldn't hit anything. 

The thing that disappointed me the most was their inability to ever figure out how to get Trae going inside. He can live off the floater and mid range but he was never able to get that going. Maybe Trae was hurt. Maybe he wasn't. I have no idea. It almost seemed like the Heat broke him over the course of the series. Kinda like the Hawks broke Ben.  Not to that extreme obviously and I have no doubt he'll be better for it (unlike Ben), but it just seemed like Trae was way way out of character for him.  I would have expected in an elimination game that he would go out firing. 

Consider this: 

Trae's FGA by game - 12 / 20 / 14 / 11 / 12   

This from a dude that had only TWO games all year with as few as 12 attempts and only 6 with 12-14 attempts.  And he had 4 in 5 games?  Something was off.  Was it the incredible D?  Or was it Trae?  

 

To me this is why it’s so difficult to define a player or a team based on a playoff series.  We don’t trash a QB in a game where his main WR and TE are out against the best defense.  
 

Last year the over reaction was playoff success.  This year it’s gonna be an over reaction to failure.  

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

It was a disaster of a series for him.  Trae was given the "Jordan Rules" type of defensive attention (as D, Supes, and other have described it) and struggled hard.  No other way to say it.  He wasn't able to overcome that challenge and, even if he was injured during the series with an ankle roll or hit, he still was struggling before that happened.

I think some people have conflated comments about not having a plan B with the rest of the personnel as somehow saying that Trae played well or doesn't own his own struggles.  When Luka was out, Dallas' remaining players took over and won 2 of 3.  When Trae was neutralized, we definitely didn't see any similar adjustment emerge other than Hunter in game 5 (which we nearly won despite an ugly outing from Trae because of Hunter stepping up).

Part of this is scheme, part was us missing some key players, and part of it was personnel.  Miami had some advantages with the refs but they flat out outplayed us and effectively shut down Trae.

Couple interesting things to me.   Trae's assist numbers would have been decent if we had anyone who could score the ball.  I'm amazed he averaged 6.   

Folks act like stars don't have bad series but you only have to look at Butler's Heat getting swept last year by the Bucks in teh first round.   Jimmy's stats were almost identical to what Trae put up in this series.   At least Trae has a game winner to his credit.   

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Couple interesting things to me.   Trae's assist numbers would have been decent if we had anyone who could score the ball.  I'm amazed he averaged 6.   

Folks act like stars don't have bad series but you only have to look at Butler's Heat getting swept last year by the Bucks in teh first round.   Jimmy's stats were almost identical to what Trae put up in this series.   At least Trae has a game winner to his credit.   

Lots of stars go through rough series on their way to bigger and better things.  You aren't wrong that Butler and his 29.7% FG% struggled last season when Miami got swept.  MJ is the GOAT (and I don't put Trae or anyone else in the league at his level) but his numbers dropped like crazy when he lost to Detroit 3 years running (including a similar 1-4 series the first time). 

(Note:  MJ's numbers fell a bunch but were much better than Trae's.  He is the GOAT after all so him scoring 18 points less per game against the Pistons than in the first round against Cleveland still leaves him looking a lot better than Trae's 16.5 points per game both on a per game and efficiency basis.  Just saying his numbers were ugly for him.)

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

The thing that disappointed me the most was their inability to ever figure out how to get Trae going inside. He can live off the floater and mid range but he was never able to get that going.

Guys like Bogi, Huerter, Hunter and Gallo needed to make the heat pay by hitting their 3s consistently to soften up the middle and with CC and JC pretty much unavailable there was no real lob threat.

5 hours ago, kg01 said:

I was a heavy advocate of adding Simmons but this year has given even me pause ................ but, if the price is rite ..........................

........................................................................................................................ maaaaybe?

CBA eggsperts, can we get insurance to cover his contract if he is indeed bat shat crazy?  How'd that be different if he had a career-ending knee injury?

His contract is already signed sealed delivered so I don't think you can change it. A player has to miss a specific number of games for insurance to cover it. In terms of career ending...a team of independent doctors will have to conclude that he can never play basketball again.

 

4 hours ago, marco102 said:

lol...I trust Simmons mental health more than Oladipo's knees. 

Or like @JayBirdHawk likes to say, why not both? 

I'm good on this one. 

4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Or neither.  just saying.

[BrazilianHawk]

8 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Heat caused timely turnovers when Atlanta attempted to put the ball into play from out of bounds.  Remember when we passed the ball to the Heat and they scored.  On the next attempt we threw the ball in and Huerter was caught and turned the ball over (out of bounds) and the Heat then made a three.  Five points in a matter of seconds.  Then, in the end, we couldn't get the ball in and attempt a three for the tie.

Worst of all, Hawks missed four free throws and lost by three points.

Fix this.

Ah, well.  Dream season about to start.  WNBA season only 2 weeks away!  Nice way to enjoy the summer if you really like to watch basketball.

GO ATL DREAM !!

Gramps, you only forgot to mention Trae got a technical foul and the end of the game. 

Had he not, that would make it a 2 point game in the last possession, so no need to attempt a three for the tie... I read it all and didn't see it mentioned once, so I thought I might bring this to the surface. On top of everything that was mentioned before, our supposed superstar is prone to get some Ts at the worst possible circumstances.

[Nash]

7 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

It would be very dumb to trade Hunter now especially for a player like Paul George who is toward the end of his career and isn't a winner anyway.

No it wouldn't. I do it in a blink of an eye. He's got the highest value at the moment and the Hawks need to cash on him now or sell him later low. He showed that he's injury prone and doesn't have the handle. He'll turn 25 this year and that handle won't improve. He came into the series as the Hawks's weakest offensive weapon and you could see that Heat didn't pay much attention to him. He's averaging less rebounds per game than any Hawks player. His assist /TO ratio is by far the worst among Hawks qualified players. He's shooting FT's below 80%. He's a long defender but not a great one. With more effort on D his offense will take a hit. He had a great game last night and a solid series but the Heat didn't take him seriously.  Sell high if you get a chance

[JayBirdHawk]

Oh well, sigh.

 

 

[Q45T]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Oh well, sigh.

 

 

The refs should deserve to get penalized for this bulls***.

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, Nash said:

No it wouldn't. I do it in a blink of an eye. He's got the highest value at the moment and the Hawks need to cash on him now or sell him later low. He showed that he's injury prone and doesn't have the handle. He'll turn 25 this year and that handle won't improve. He came into the series as the Hawks's weakest offensive weapon and you could see that Heat didn't pay much attention to him. He's averaging less rebounds per game than any Hawks player. His assist /TO ratio is by far the worst among Hawks qualified players. He's shooting FT's below 80%. He's a long defender but not a great one. With more effort on D his offense will take a hit. He had a great game last night and a solid series but the Heat didn't take him seriously.  Sell high if you get a chance

I'll play...Who would you trade him for Nash?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

11 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I’m not really sold on Trae off ball… his vision and passing is elite… we need better options and responses to how teams guard him but imo he needs the ball in his hands as much as possible

 

The biggest thing about Trae being off the ball, is giving him the ability to possibly stand in the corner while another primary ball handler runs an offensive set.  I believe Trae either led the league, or was top 5 in catch and shoot 3 point percentage.

I definitely don't want him running around like Steph Curry.  But if he was able to rest on offense for a few possessions until the ball is swung to him, that may make him an even more lethal offensive threat, because his efficiency would go way up.

So I wanted to filter the stats toward guys who played at least 1/2 the season, and took at least 1 catch and shoot 3s in a game.  He actually ranked 3rd in the league, at 48.1% 3FG.  But he only has 1 catch and shoot opportunity per game from 3 point range.

ONE

 

The top catch and shoot guys average about 5 - 6 attempts per game.  And those attempts aren't created by a guy running around with his head cut off.  Those opportunities are created by another good facilitator who can also score.

This means the Hawks need to find another guy who can create for others at a pretty high level, to maximize Trae's catch and shoot opportunities. 

[BrazilianHawk]

3 hours ago, Q45T said:

The refs should deserve to get penalized for this bulls***.

Yes. 

 

And Nate also does... even more than the refs. 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

The biggest thing about Trae being off the ball, is giving him the ability to possibly stand in the corner while another primary ball handler runs an offensive set.  I believe Trae either led the league, or was top 5 in catch and shoot 3 point percentage.

I definitely don't want him running around like Steph Curry.  But if he was able to rest on offense for a few possessions until the ball is swung to him, that may make him an even more lethal offensive threat, because his efficiency would go way up.

So I wanted to filter the stats toward guys who played at least 1/2 the season, and took at least 1 catch and shoot 3s in a game.  He actually ranked 3rd in the league, at 48.1% 3FG.  But he only has 1 catch and shoot opportunity per game from 3 point range.

ONE

 

The top catch and shoot guys average about 5 - 6 attempts per game.  And those attempts aren't created by a guy running around with his head cut off.  Those opportunities are created by another good facilitator who can also score.

This means the Hawks need to find another guy who can create for others at a pretty high level, to maximize Trae's catch and shoot opportunities. 

 

I agree with your sentiments on Trae off the ball.  His corner 3 is his best shot that he never gets to use.  But the right offense coach could also run him off a screen just to get him the ball.   Imagine a play where he comes of a screen from the corner, gets to the top of the key and goes into Float/Lob game.   It would require that there be another player that has enough gravity to keep teams from doubling Trae. 

But he's no Steph.. He's a catch and shoot guy. 

 

[bird_dirt]

22 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Last year we peaked but again we are a young team that needs to go through our bumps in the road. That was a good tough lesson learned. This is part of it. 
 

Now our young guys will learn that games should never be “boring”. Play hard to get that home court in the playoffs.

Couple tweaks to the roster and I think we can be a top 4 team in the East again next year.

This

Last year, the team learned they could pull everything together at the end, contend, and beat anyone. Seeding didn't matter. Then they seemed to coast early this year before dropping like flies from COVID, putting them behind the 8 ball January on.

Maybe after this year, they'll learn how valuable it is to work hard throughout the season to get in a good spot come playoffs. Take everything you can while you can, because you never know when you're going to need those extra games in hand.

[JayBirdHawk]

JD Shaw: Heat forward Markieff Morris has been fined $25,000 for interfering with live game play while on the bench. Morris grabbed and held Hawks swingman De’Andre Hunter out of bounds during the team’s Game 5 win.

 

– via Twitter JShawNBA

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

JD Shaw: Heat forward Markieff Morris has been fined $25,000 for interfering with live game play while on the bench. Morris grabbed and held Hawks swingman De’Andre Hunter out of bounds during the team’s Game 5 win.

 

– via Twitter JShawNBA

He should've been kicked out of the game, and the Hawks given 2 FTs  and the ball.

[AHF]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

He should've been kicked out of the game, and the Hawks given 2 FTs  and the ball.

100% agree.  Refs have discretion on most unsportsmanlike conduct calls but the rules specifically say that any inactive player who tries to interfere with play is an instant ejection.  I don't see how it is different if the player is active or inactive if they are on the bench.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

100% agree.  Refs have discretion on most unsportsmanlike conduct calls but the rules specifically say that any inactive player who tries to interfere with play is an instant ejection.  I don't see how it is different if the player is active or inactive if they are on the bench.

The referees even made a point to say that Morris "slightly" impeded Hunter from getting back on the court.

[Gray Mule]

To me, active players should mean the five players in the game at the time of any incident.  Morris was not in the game at the time, thus not active.  

Hawks missed 4 free throws + as I have been reminded, Trae gave them another point with his tech foul call.

I continue to ask:  What about Jalen Johnson?  Is he worth keeping?  

[AHF]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The referees even made a point to say that Morris "slightly" impeded Hunter from getting back on the court.

Grabbing him with two hands and pulling him so his momentum reverses from moving towards the ball to off the floor is not "slight."

That is called trying to be sneaky, not only "slightly" impacting things.  And of course the Heat were right there trying to draw the call for Hunter being out of bounds.

****ing cheaters.