Official Game Thread: Hawks at Hornets

[shakes]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

Let me see if I can explain it.

(1) It is a plus play because while the chances of anything positive happening is very low, it is only a positive play (unless you turn it over or shoot it too early, etc.).  So that is a "plus play" as far as the team's chance at winning even if the impact is pretty marginal over a full season.

(2) Players are primarily judged on their own play.  So for awards like 6th man, All-Star, All-NBA, etc. nobody really cares if you shoot a ton of "plus play" low % shots.  They care much more about what your FG%, 3pt%, TS%, etc. are.  When players are negotiating new contracts it works the same way.  Teams will use a lower % shooting against the player and agents can leverage higher shooting %s into real dollars.  So his point is that players are individually incentivized to not take those shots because their low % is rolled in with all their other shots and it hurts their resume, reputation, recognition and renumeration (had to go with alliteration).

Here is a quote from Durant where he basically says if he is shooting well he'll take the shot because he can still end up the game at a good % but he isn't going to worsen a mediocre or poor shooting performance by taking those shots:

Why would he do this?  He obviously wants to only have high % shooting games and will only take those shots if he is doing well enough that he is likely to still end up shooting just fine and it is for all these reasons.  The only thing that is different for Trae, Durant, etc. is the $$ because they are going to get max deals regardless.  But Durant's reputation is built on being an ultra efficient scorer and he doesn't want to diminish that reputation for the sake of taking a low % shot -- even though it objectively increases his team's chances at winning.

maybe that's why Durant is a little bitch who never won anything unless he was strapped to Steph Curry?

 

I'll go with Steph Curry's philosophy over Durants 10/10 days.

 

You said it yourself, it objectively increases the chance of victory.  Only selfish people who care more about their own stats than wins refuse to take those shots.    Or maybe those guys are on much better teams who don't need to claw for every basket and every win?  Hawks sure aren't in that position.   Hawks definitely are not a team taht can afford to take possessions off.

 

Trae shows his true character every time he refuses to take a heave.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, shakes said:

Did I miss something.  Do Steph and Lamelo shoot those heaves or am I lying?

You're lying.  Well, not 'lying' per se.  You're being a little extra.  I'm sure those guys also do the old 'ah, I just missed the buzzer on that one'. from time to time.

 I've seen Trae go ahead and heave it too.  

This notion that those guys heave it because they're ultracompetitiveandalwaysdothelittlethings is a bit much.  They might just not care.  They might just be chasing points or just are tryna make sportscenter if it goes in.  We don't know.

And I find it laughable to put Ball in the same room as Curry.  He and Trae have the same warts to their game.  Just happened his team won last night.  They're the worst team in the east for several reasons and he's somewhere on that list.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

You're lying. 

Which is why I have him on ignore. That and he’s a scrubs fan or Mavs fan. Sad that he has to bash and can’t go truly enjoy his Luka elsewhere. This isn’t the forum for it yellow hat fuc… I digress.

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

You're lying.  Well, not 'lying' per se.  You're being a little extra.  I'm sure those guys also do the old 'ah, I just missed the buzzer on that one'. from time to time.

 I've seen Trae go ahead and heave it too.  

This notion that those guys heave it because they're ultracompetitiveandalwaysdothelittlethings is a bit much.  They might just not care.  They might just be chasing points or just are tryna make sportscenter if it goes in.  We don't know.

And I find it laughable to put Ball in the same room as Curry.  He and Trae have the same warts to their game.  Just happened his team won last night.  They're the worst team in the east for several reasons and he's somewhere on that list.

I have no clue what you’re talking about besides it’s a reply to him. Domino effect lol.

[Packfill]

Hawks lack consistency from game to game more so than any real contender.  That explains their mediocre record.  Can they go on a run - yes.  ECF run from two years ago shows it is possible.  Last years playoffs show the other end of the spectrum. 

I am not sure they have the right mix of players to jump to the next level but would be good to confirm that one way or the other with a different coach first.  I am 100% sure a coaching change is needed.

[Gray Mule]

I posted earlier that it's time to fire the entire team or Nate.  On second thought, maybe it's time for Nate to "clean house" with his assistant coaches.  Remember, when the Hawks went on a big run in the playoffs, all the assistant coaches were from Lloyd Pierce, the head coach that he replaced.

At season's end, new assistant coaches came aboard.  Hawks just haven't been the same since.  Present assistants look good and speak well on TV when they are interviewed.  However, this is not their main job.  They are to assist Nate in having all players ready to play when each game tips off.

Hawks have a problem - - Or they are really a .500 club.  They run hot and cold.  Doing nothing, which is what we are doing right now, doesn't seem to work out very well, does it?

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, shakes said:

maybe that's why Durant is a little bitch who never won anything unless he was strapped to Steph Curry?

 

I'll go with Steph Curry's philosophy over Durants 10/10 days.

 

You said it yourself, it objectively increases the chance of victory.  Only selfish people who care more about their own stats than wins refuse to take those shots.    Or maybe those guys are on much better teams who don't need to claw for every basket and every win?  Hawks sure aren't in that position.   Hawks definitely are not a team taht can afford to take possessions off.

 

Trae shows his true character every time he refuses to take a heave.

What you are ignoring is that it is the absolute norm.  Players care about not seeing their shooting %s hurt even if it would help the team.

See this article from just this week about "grenades" being a breach of NBA culture / unwritten law.  A "grenade" is a pass that a player receives with the shot clock winding down.  Why is that a big deal?  Because those are low % shots and players know their reputations, etc. are hurt if they have to take those shots.  So the article describes how people routinely make themselves unavailable for a pass in those situations to avoid having to take the low % shot, how players apologize for doing this to one another, etc.  

https://abc7.com/sports/inside-nbas-unwritten-rule-passing-the-ball-with-seconds-left-on-/12807979/

Quote

THE GENERAL RULE: If you dribble down the clock and don't find anyone open, take a tough shot yourself instead of pulling the pin and putting a teammate in position to dent his percentages. Leaguewide, players shot 29.7% last season on contested field goal attempts after receiving a pass with two seconds or less remaining on the shot clock, according to ESPN Stats & Information research of Second Spectrum tracking data.

"You're just not supposed to do it, but it happens sometimes, and sometimes they hit the shot," Phoenix Suns star Devin Booker told ESPN. "But nobody likes it. Nobody enjoys that. ... The point-5s where you can't even get your shot together -- those are the ones where people get mad."

By point-5s, Booker is referring to catching the pass with only half a second left on the shot clock, forcing a player to fling up a terrible shot with a defender in his face.

Plenty of players get mad about getting stuck with grenades. Such passes have caused many eye rolls and pursed lips.

"A vet will tell you for sure: 'As a shooter, do not pass it to me with one second.'" Mavs coach Jason Kidd, a Hall of Fame point guard, told ESPN. "It might be a written rule now. It's always been there."

So hate the game but don't act like Trae is in any way unusual for avoiding low % end of quarter shots.  NBA players try to avoid undesirable shots of all kinds.

You can find references to taking the shot after the clock expires being "DeMar Derozan's signature move", on LeBron James taking buzzer beaters just 3 times in 10 years, etc. 

Now I'd rather see all Hawks taking those shots, I am not going to blast any of them for not doing it when it is affirmatively unusual for players to take these shots.  

I do think Battier's suggestion would improve the game.  Just make it so that heaves with the clock running out don't count as FGA unless they are made ala shots taken when fouled.  That won't compromise the stats for players and will align the best interests of the individual with the best interests of the team and the game.

 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

I posted earlier that it's time to fire the entire team or Nate.  On second thought, maybe it's time for Nate to "clean house" with his assistant coaches.  Remember, when the Hawks went on a big run in the playoffs, all the assistant coaches were from Lloyd Pierce, the head coach that he replaced.

At season's end, new assistant coaches came aboard.  Hawks just haven't been the same since.  Present assistants look good and speak well on TV when they are interviewed.  However, this is not their main job.  They are to assist Nate in having all players ready to play when each game tips off.

Hawks have a problem - - Or they are really a .500 club.  They run hot and cold.  Doing nothing, which is what we are doing right now, doesn't seem to work out very well, does it?

Unfortunately, Nate deliberately staffed the coaching staff with underqualified assistants who would be incapable of taking the team over mid-season.  I have no doubt that this hurts the team, renders Nate less effective, and guarantees that we won't make a coaching change until the offseason.  I can't believe that Nate actually thinks this is a strong staff beyond the head coach (I assume he sees himself as great and his son as great).  Nobody is coming to poach our assistants.

[shakes]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

What you are ignoring is that it is the absolute norm.  Players care about not seeing their shooting %s hurt even if it would help the team.

See this article from just this week about "grenades" being a breach of NBA culture / unwritten law.  A "grenade" is a pass that a player receives with the shot clock winding down.  Why is that a big deal?  Because those are low % shots and players know their reputations, etc. are hurt if they have to take those shots.  So the article describes how people routinely make themselves unavailable for a pass in those situations to avoid having to take the low % shot, how players apologize for doing this to one another, etc.  

https://abc7.com/sports/inside-nbas-unwritten-rule-passing-the-ball-with-seconds-left-on-/12807979/

So hate the game but don't act like Trae is in any way unusual for avoiding low % end of quarter shots.  NBA players try to avoid undesirable shots of all kinds.

You can find references to taking the shot after the clock expires being "DeMar Derozan's signature move", on LeBron James taking buzzer beaters just 3 times in 10 years, etc. 

Now I'd rather see all Hawks taking those shots, I am not going to blast any of them for not doing it when it is affirmatively unusual for players to take these shots.  

I do think Battier's suggestion would improve the game.  Just make it so that heaves with the clock running out don't count as FGA unless they are made ala shots taken when fouled.  That won't compromise the stats for players and will align the best interests of the individual with the best interests of the team and the game.

 

i saw that article on teh grenades.  Apples and oranges.   Totally different from last second heaves.

 

And I don't care if it's the norm.  99% of the players in the NBA don't shoot as well as Trae from very deep.   Steph Curry is in that 1% and he takes and makes those shots all the time.  Trae needs to be held to a higher standard because he is also in that 1% and has a much better shot at making those heaves than most players.   Trae is a very flawed player who needs to maximize his positives in order to make up the difference.  One of those positives is his shooting.    He already slacks off on defense and many excuse him because "he has so much responsibility on offense".  That's fine, but he needs to live up to it.  part of that responsibility is trying to get a good look at the basket on heaves every opportunity he gets.

 

and you guys make it sound like he's only passing up 150 footers.  No, he refuses to take shots even 30 feet from teh basket!  No excuse for that BS.  At least none coming from me.

[AtLaS]

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

i saw that article on teh grenades.  Apples and oranges.   Totally different from last second heaves.

 

And I don't care if it's the norm.  99% of the players in the NBA don't shoot as well as Trae from very deep.   Steph Curry is in that 1% and he takes and makes those shots all the time.  Trae needs to be held to a higher standard because he is also in that 1% and has a much better shot at making those heaves than most players.   Trae is a very flawed player who needs to maximize his positives in order to make up the difference.  One of those positives is his shooting.    He already slacks off on defense and many excuse him because "he has so much responsibility on offense".  That's fine, but he needs to live up to it.  part of that responsibility is trying to get a good look at the basket on heaves every opportunity he gets.

 

and you guys make it sound like he's only passing up 150 footers.  No, he refuses to take shots even 30 feet from teh basket!  No excuse for that BS.  At least none coming from me.

If he was jacking up two full court heaves every game he'd probably be shooting about 24% from 3 on the season.  Then everyone would complain that he's shooting 24% and is the worst 3pt shooter in the league.  

This just isn't a Trae thing even though you want to make it out to be.  It's a problem that the NBA needs to fix.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, shakes said:

i saw that article on teh grenades.  Apples and oranges.   Totally different from last second heaves.

I don't follow your logic at all.  Can you elaborate?  

1. It is the norm in the NBA for players to avoid end of quarter heaves because they don't want to lower their shooting %s.
2. Players actively avoid and consider a violation of player ethics to throw a pass to a teammate with the clock expiring because those teammates don't want to lower their shooting %s.

 

These are different game situations but the only important aspects of them are identical:

1. In both cases, teams will be better off if people are willing to take those shots.  
2. In both cases, players don't want to take those shots because they are low % opportunities and will make their shooting %s worse.  

How are these not closely related concepts?

[Sothron]

No one shoots the ball on those long distance heaves. They wait until the buzzer sounds to take the shot so it looks like they are shooting it for real for the fans but they know it won't count because it is after the buzzer.

Blaming Trae for not taking those shots is just silly and frankly stupid. We aren't losing games because we don't take the few three quarter or half court shots at the end of quarters or halves. I can't believe this thread is this long because of one person stupidly arguing this. 

We lost that game because we played bad defense as a team and Charlotte legit just shot lights out the entire game as a team. Blaming only Trae for the loss is so passé at this point. 

[shakes]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't follow your logic at all.  Can you elaborate?  

1. It is the norm in the NBA for players to avoid end of quarter heaves because they don't want to lower their shooting %s.
2. Players actively avoid and consider a violation of player ethics to throw a pass to a teammate with the clock expiring because those teammates don't want to lower their shooting %s.

 

These are different game situations but the only important aspects of them are identical:

1. In both cases, teams will be better off if people are willing to take those shots.  
2. In both cases, players don't want to take those shots because they are low % opportunities and will make their shooting %s worse.  

How are these not closely related concepts?

they're different because a grenade is a ball that is passed to you when you have very little time to get off a shot.  A heave is off the dribble and only attempted when you have ample time to get it off.

A grenade can easily be avoided by the passer keeping the ball and shooting it himself.   A heave only involves one player who dribble the ball and shoots when he is as close as h can get before the time goes off.

A heave is an objectively positive play with zero downside.  A grenade is rarely a positive play.

How are those scenarios at all related?

[macdaddy]

23 minutes ago, shakes said:

and you guys make it sound like he's only passing up 150 footers.  No, he refuses to take shots even 30 feet from teh basket!  No excuse for that BS.  At least none coming from me.

Other than last night i guess. 

[shakes]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

No one shoots the ball on those long distance heaves. They wait until the buzzer sounds to take the shot so it looks like they are shooting it for real for the fans but they know it won't count because it is after the buzzer.

Blaming Trae for not taking those shots is just silly and frankly stupid. We aren't losing games because we don't take the few three quarter or half court shots at the end of quarters or halves. I can't believe this thread is this long because of one person stupidly arguing this. 

We lost that game because we played bad defense as a team and Charlotte legit just shot lights out the entire game as a team. Blaming only Trae for the loss is so passé at this point. 

 

**except Steph Curry and Lamelo.

 

We don't lose very many games because we didn't take a heave.  But refusing to do it is a selfish act and not one that endears you to your teammates and definitely does not inspire your teammates to play harder and sacrifice for the team more than they already do.  And THAT 100% leads to losses.  Lots of losses.

When your star plays with a selfish mindset and prioritizes himself over the team it 100% permeates through the locker room and lowers team morale and gives other players the idea that they can be selfish as well.

 

And let's not twist the point around.  I never said that we lost the game last night because Trae didn't attempt the heaves.  I'm talking much bigger picture than just one game.

[shakes]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Other than last night i guess. 

I don't remember the heave at the end of the 3rd quarter you are talking about.   My guess is that the only reason Trae did that is because he felt foolish after seeing Lamelo do it twice already for a team taht isn't even trying to make the playoffs.

[JeffS17]

Does anyone else have an issue with their browser refreshing the page every time you add a like or reaction to a post?

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, shakes said:

they're different because a grenade is a ball that is passed to you when you have very little time to get off a shot.  A heave is off the dribble and only attempted when you have ample time to get it off.

A grenade can easily be avoided by the passer keeping the ball and shooting it himself.   A heave only involves one player who dribble the ball and shoots when he is as close as h can get before the time goes off.

A heave is an objectively positive play with zero downside.  A grenade is rarely a positive play.

How are those scenarios at all related?

Shakes you are disappointing me here.  It is like you can't see the forest for the trees.

The issue is whether players want to shoot in these scenarios.  The only reason players don't like receiving a "grenade" is because it forces them to shoot a low % shot which tanks their shooting %s.  The only reason players don't like to take end of quarter heaves (which can be equally rushed shots as grenade scenario and can be catch and shoots, etc.) is because they are taking a low % shot which tanks their shooting %s.  If these didn't count as FGA, players would take as many of both of these kinds of shots as possible because they would do nothing but boost their stats.  Guys would not be angry or work to avoid them but would fight to see who got to take them.

The reason that most NBA players avoid taking heaves is the same reason most NBA players are angry when they receive a grenade:  they are shots that lower their %s and make them look bad.  The important aspects of the comparison are identical.  The differing aspects go to whether players should be angry at their teammates for putting them in that position and that is irrelevant to the discussion we are having on this thread.

My point in making the comparison was to emphasize how common this attitude of resentment of low % shots and working to avoid taking low % shots is.  Heaves are not unique.  The same logic applies to other scenarios and this resistance to low % shots cuts across the vast majority of the players.  Trae is part of the normal majority in this regard.  Again, I want all our Hawks to make the best of and take all of these low % shots but it is an open secret that guys avoid being passing targets, hold the ball past the buzzer, etc. to avoid having the shot count against their numbers regardless of what is best for the team.

[terrell]

3 hours ago, swanlee said:

I saw Trae try and even hustle a bit on defense. Hes just to small to really make a huge impact on D but he did try last night and actually hustled a bit on D.

I think we need a couple of more good bench guys focused on defense but we really need a coach that can create a better defensive scheme for us. 

This is not working on the defensive side and its not all the players fault. A good scheme and more timely coaching can over come that.

 

 

"He's just too small"

[terrell]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Unfortunately, Nate deliberately staffed the coaching staff with underqualified assistants who would be incapable of taking the team over mid-season.  I have no doubt that this hurts the team, renders Nate less effective, and guarantees that we won't make a coaching change until the offseason.  I can't believe that Nate actually thinks this is a strong staff beyond the head coach (I assume he sees himself as great and his son as great).  Nobody is coming to poach our assistants.

I said this at the beginningof the season.. "He hired a bunch of people no other team wants, including the Hawks"..... smh

[Diesel]

Almost there.... 18 here we come.