Official Game Thread: Mavericks at Hawks (6 PM Tip!)

[Spud2nique]

52 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I have said for yeeeears that Kyrie is the most overrated player in the NBA. His handle is the only elite thing he has. He's a terrible defender, not a good passer and is streaky af when it comes to shooting. 

But if you listen to BSPN he's just amazing! 

Kyrie is like a glorified Salim Stoudamire.

[Gray Mule]

Free throws:

Dallas - - - 22-32

Atlanta - - 18-22

Dallas had 10 more free throws than the Hawks.  We left 4 points there.  They left 10. 

Some of the foul calls were questionable, to say the least.  

[bird_dirt]

15 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Mid game

Battle of the Midway 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I think we wanted to stay under that tax.  That was goal #1 and goal #2 was be as good as possible while doing that.  This is it.   .500.    I think most teams have the desire to win but not necessarily the stomach to spend like is necessary.  

Like you said, just trading Kev for nothing.  Trading Gallo and not replacing him.   Relying on a bench with very little experience and no elite bucket getters or plus defenders.   

 this. We'll be real serious about winning when we aren't penny pinching. And I'm not saying to spend without discretion, but moves to stay under the Tax BEFORE the season is a losers mentality.  I would understand getting under the tax at the trade deadline if things aren't going as plan.

The other thing was trying to recoup pick(s) from the DJ trade - if you are already worried about that before the ball bounces, then don't make the trade. Lower mentality.

Gallo was on the block during the previous trade deadline, yet JJ wasn't prepared earlier to fill the gap.

So many misteps.

[JayBirdHawk]

I love the work Bey did on the offensive glass. Such a hustler. 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I think we wanted to stay under that tax.  That was goal #1 and goal #2 was be as good as possible while doing that.  This is it.   

Think we all agree.

At the same time, if you ask me what deal was on the table that we could have made but didn't because of the lux tax, I can't pretend to know. The only thing I can say to that is what I just said... there's an offer we shouldn't have, but we made it.

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Sixers brought in Harden

We're about to find out if they're actually better. Think that jury's still out until post season.

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Cavs got Mitchell

They've gotten better, but is it just because of Mitchell or does it have as much or more to do with internal development, Mobley especially?

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Knicks got Brunson. 

That was free agency, and so, not any kind of deal that we could have made anyhow.

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

We got DJ but had a net talent loss

To be fair, the DJ deal was near-universally hailed by all of us in terms of the 2022-23 benefit. To be fair, letting Gallo go was near-universally anticipated, as practically no one thought you could justify paying Gallo $20m this season. To be fair, that whole thing was the right decision even in hindsight... especially in hindsight (... ie, Gallo being injured).

Net talent loss is, then, a function of the KVon deal, which we've already discussed. And there's a good argument to be had about whether it was actually talent loss or maturity loss, and with maturity loss, apprehension on the part of the former head coach to play JJ especially.

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Celtics brought White and Brogdon to an already contending team.

White was already on the team, of course, but when you think about adding Brodgon and what woulda been  had they had Gallo... yes, that's a franchise in fifth gear in terms of roster improvement.

But to be fair, I also don't pretend to know that Ressler and his front office would or wouldn't fail to be equally aggressive if the team had just made an NBA Finals appearance.

 

So, of all those mentioned, I don't really see anyone who we could have obtained or any team who we could have patterned ourselves after for greater success.

It all, still, comes back to keeping KVon. Giant mistake. Any other contention seems to be imagining opportunities we have no good reason to believe existed. Correct me if I'm missing something, of course.

[NBASupes]

Ya'll keep going and going about the offseason last year but the issue was the starting frontcourt and it went unchanged. Now I know there was limited options, Ayton was pretty much it but we still needed to address it. Honestly, i am fine with the PF position. We got Bey, Okongwu, and JJ. It's the center position that's the issue. We need a better center than Capela and one with a lot more size than Okongwu. We need a 5 but a stretch 5. Even a smaller 5 like Sengun would help tremendously since Okongwu would defensively play the 5 although too small. At the end of the day, if we had a tremendous offensive 5, it would take a lot of pressure off Trae. Basically what you assumed Murray would do which we can't do as both of them are backcourt mates.

Edited April 3, 2023 by NBASupes

[macdaddy]

I loved the DJ deal and knew Gallo had to go.  We needed to replace him though.   

We swapped Kev for DJ and then didn't add a single other player that wasn't just a garbage time player.   That's crazy for a team that had as bad a year as we did last year.  

[sturt]

35 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

bad a year as we did last year

Real Hawks = .621

 

36 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

swapped Kev for DJ

Most believed that was an upgrade at the time of the deal, of course. And the deal did, indeed, resolve the perceived problem--not having another legit option to run the offense through regularly.

It's mainly that we didn't replace Gallo when you think about it in those terms.

 

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

It all, still, comes back to keeping KVon. Giant mistake. Any other contention seems to be imagining opportunities we have no good reason to believe existed. Correct me if I'm missing something, of course.

Mistakes from my vantage point:

• Shipping Kev out for trash and a pick, especially before the trade deadline, and especially given Kev was surprised to be traded which indicates
• Not pulling the trigger on Nate this past offseason.  This is probably, in my opinion, the biggest reason for our mediocrity this year -- but, as I know you will suggest, was Snyder actually available at the time? Or anyone that is markedly better than Nate?  I don't know that, and I give the FO leeway on this because there's probably nothing more difficult than lining up coaching changes that are better than neutral
• Extending Hunter before we needed was a mistake imo.  This one was especially weird to me because Hunter is the exact kind of player that needed to show two things: health and effort.  We made JC wait and he has been all heart/soul/effort.  We knew what he was.  We did not know what Hunter was when we extended (and he's been underwhelming for a #4 pick and expectations.  Does this actually impact our performance this year?  Maybe.
• I think we gave up too much for Murray but that does not have impact on this years performance.
• There were rumors of JC deals that, if true, we should have pulled the trigger on.  Even if Lauri did not improve YoY, Lauri + 2 firsts for JC would have been a stellar deal last offseason as it was rumored.

I'm looking forward to next season at this point, though.  I think, in time, Quin can shore up a lot of the issues we have.  I feel more bullish on next year than I did at the same point last year.  I never had any faith McMillan could get synergies out of Trae/Dejounte, and I feel pretty confident I was correct on that.  If we keep both for next year, I'm much more hopeful Snyder will implement an effective offense that makes our team better than the sum of its parts

[sturt]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Ya'll keep going and going about the offseason last year but the issue was the starting frontcourt and it went unchanged. Now I know there was limited options, Ayton was pretty much it but we still needed to address it. Honestly, i am fine with the PF position. We got Bey, Okongwu, and JJ. It's the center position that's the issue. We need a better center than Capela and one with a lot more size than Okongwu. We need a 5 but a stretch 5. Even a smaller 5 like Sengun would help tremendously since Okongwu would defensively play the 5 although too small. At the end of the day, if we had a tremendous offensive 5, it would take a lot of pressure off Trae. Basically what you assumed Murray would do which we can't do as both of them are backcourt mates.

I'm less sure that offense is the problem. When Capela is playing primo defense, it's been my observation that this team performs well overall. I'm very intrigued with the idea that... if you'll pardon my Cowboys analogy... Yeka is to Tony Pollard as Clint is to Zeke Elliott... it may be time to pass that torch, or at least  start giving the two equal time. Similarly, I'm intrigued to see Jalen start sharing minutes regularly with both Baptist at PF and Dre at SF... his capacity to play solid-to-exceptional defense has been an unexpected gift. His problems defensively, imo, are mostly mental... things that go away with more time on the floor after creating more and better connections between the cognitive and the physical.

[sturt]

21 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Extending Hunter before we needed was a mistake imo.  This one was especially weird to me because Hunter is the exact kind of player that needed to show two things: health and effort.  We made JC wait and he has been all heart/soul/effort.  We knew what he was.  We did not know what Hunter was when we extended (and he's been underwhelming for a #4 pick and expectations.  Does this actually impact our performance this year?  Maybe.

 

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Mistakes from my vantage point:

• Shipping Kev out for trash and a pick, especially before the trade deadline, and especially given Kev was surprised to be traded which indicates
• Not pulling the trigger on Nate this past offseason.  This is probably, in my opinion, the biggest reason for our mediocrity this year -- but, as I know you will suggest, was Snyder actually available at the time? Or anyone that is markedly better than Nate?  I don't know that, and I give the FO leeway on this because there's probably nothing more difficult than lining up coaching changes that are better than neutral
• Extending Hunter before we needed was a mistake imo.  This one was especially weird to me because Hunter is the exact kind of player that needed to show two things: health and effort.  We made JC wait and he has been all heart/soul/effort.  We knew what he was.  We did not know what Hunter was when we extended (and he's been underwhelming for a #4 pick and expectations.  Does this actually impact our performance this year?  Maybe.
• I think we gave up too much for Murray but that does not have impact on this years performance.
• There were rumors of JC deals that, if true, we should have pulled the trigger on.  Even if Lauri did not improve YoY, Lauri + 2 firsts for JC would have been a stellar deal last offseason as it was rumored.

I'm looking forward to next season at this point, though.  I think, in time, Quin can shore up a lot of the issues we have.  I feel more bullish on next year than I did at the same point last year.  I never had any faith McMillan could get synergies out of Trae/Dejounte, and I feel pretty confident I was correct on that.  If we keep both for next year, I'm much more hopeful Snyder will implement an effective offense that makes our team better than the sum of its parts

1. We got Bey so we eventually replaced Kevin as you see, look at our offense since the trade

2. Can you really say this is a L. We ended up with clearly the best case scenario with Quin and not having on come off a pick. 

3. I am convinced our BBIQ is in the gutter. There are a lot of teams who want and need what Hunter does. We paid market value. We didn't for JC which bit us in the ass and he didn't have much of a market but Trae was bitching as well as our low BBIQ fanbase to resign him

4. Obviously yeah but that's on Trae and the new FO, and most of the fanbase overriding TS and posters like me.

5. I never heard of those deals. Utah always wanted JC plus assets and not for Lauri but just for Vando and Beasley. 

[Peoriabird]

Why are posters so quick to blame front office mismanagement and players like Hunter vs max players like Trae Young?  Trae Young is having one of his worse years as a pro...Young's numbers are almost as bad a his rookie season but yet he is earning $41 million per year on average.  But for some reason, its Hunter's fault even though he is having one of his better seasons!  I just don't understand Hawk fans period

[AHF]

56 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. We got Bey so we eventually replaced Kevin as you see, look at our offense since the trade

2. Can you really say this is a L. We ended up with clearly the best case scenario with Quin and not having on come off a pick. 

3. I am convinced our BBIQ is in the gutter. There are a lot of teams who want and need what Hunter does. We paid market value. We didn't for JC which bit us in the ass and he didn't have much of a market but Trae was bitching as well as our low BBIQ fanbase to resign him

4. Obviously yeah but that's on Trae and the new FO, and most of the fanbase overriding TS and posters like me.

5. I never heard of those deals. Utah always wanted JC plus assets and not for Lauri but just for Vando and Beasley. 

1.  I have to agree with this criticism, though.  As many have said, we could have traded to get under the tax line at the deadline if we needed to do so.  Kevin has shown we gave up on a player who would have been a huge asset this season, especially with Bogi injured for most of the early season.

2.  Do you mean we didn't have to trade a pick for Quin?  I'm happy with where we ended but the Nate issues we worried about before this season all came to bear and if you trust what has been reported he didn't even want to be there.

3.  I think you are misreading the post so for you to say Jeff's take is BBIQ in the gutter is not great.  Jeff didn't say that keeping Hunter was bad.  He said that signing Hunter to a pretty big contract before the season began was a bad risk.  If Hunter had another lost season like 2020-21, don't you think he would be much cheaper now?  If he underwhelmed this season, he would also be a lot cheaper to resign this offseason vs the contract we gave him.  The big risk to not resigning him this past season was not the risk of losing him (as a restricted free agent he only leaves if we let him go), it was him having a breakout season that would propel him to a max or near max contract.  As it turns out, I don't imagine he'd command anything much different than what he has and that was with the best season of his career this year.  So think Jeff has a point here even if I 100% agree with you that we needed to keep Hunter.  With JC, the difference was that we either had to let him walk for nothing or resign him by the time the decision point arrived.  With Hunter, we still had a year before we reached that point.

4.  Several of us had concerns about the DM deal at the time.  Mine two biggest concerns were about the cost vs his contract (i.e., he could walk after two seasons) and his proficiency/efficiency as a scorer.  Not much else to be said about this.

5.  Frankly, the Lauri + 2 firsts for JC sounds like it never happened to me.  You have to pry first round picks out of Danny Ainge's dying, clenched first.  I am definitely worried about JC's future and fit with the team after this year to a significantly higher degree than I was after last season.  I am a fan of his but I'm now convinced it will never be workable with him and CC as our starters.  OO has come of age and is ready for more, imo.  We'll need to make some moves in the frontcourt in the future.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Why are posters so quick to blame front office mismanagement and players like Hunter vs max players like Trae Young?  Trae Young is having one of his worse years as a pro...Young's numbers are almost as bad a his rookie season but yet he is earning $41 million per year on average.  But for some reason, its Hunter's fault even though he is having one of his better seasons!  I just don't understand Hawk fans period

I'm not sure what you think people are saying is Hunter's fault.  He has basically completed the best season of his career.  I hoped for a bigger jump for him but he was largely healthy and more productive than ever.  He had a solid year.

Trae had a terrible season.  No sugar coating it.  26 and 10 look like decent raw numbers but the drop to a .570% TS% doesn't cut it for a superstar.  He needs to be better next year for sure.  To your comment, however, I don't think anyone has gotten more criticism than Trae this year from the fans.  He definitely let everyone down from his biggest fans to his harshest critics (well, at least the ones that actually root for the Hawks).  I think Trae's contract was well earned when he was signed (you don't let a young player like him go) but he didn't live up to it this year.  That was a bit of a common theme for this team:

Trae $37M - 6.3 Win Shares

JC $23M - 3.8 Win Shares

CC $19M - 6.9 Win Shares

Bogi $18M - 2.5 Win Shares

DM $17M - 4.5 Win Shares

Hunter $10M - 2.4 Win Shares

OO $6.4M - 6.9 Win Shares

AJ $3.5 - $2.1 Win Shares

The only guys who stand out as great values are the ones on their rookie deals.  

[kg01]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Why are posters so quick to blame front office mismanagement and players like Hunter vs max players like Trae Young?  Trae Young is having one of his worse years as a pro...Young's numbers are almost as bad a his rookie season but yet he is earning $41 million per year on average.  But for some reason, its Hunter's fault even though he is having one of his better seasons!  I just don't understand Hawk fans period

What more do you want people to say about Trae?

Just because people talk a out others doesn't mean they're ignoring him. 

[NBASupes]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

1.  I have to agree with this criticism, though.  As many have said, we could have traded to get under the tax line at the deadline if we needed to do so.  Kevin has shown we gave up on a player who would have been a huge asset this season, especially with Bogi injured for most of the early season.

2.  Do you mean we didn't have to trade a pick for Quin?  I'm happy with where we ended but the Nate issues we worried about before this season all came to bear and if you trust what has been reported he didn't even want to be there.

3.  I think you are misreading the post so for you to say Jeff's take is BBIQ in the gutter is not great.  Jeff didn't say that keeping Hunter was bad.  He said that signing Hunter to a pretty big contract before the season began was a bad risk.  If Hunter had another lost season like 2020-21, don't you think he would be much cheaper now?  If he underwhelmed this season, he would also be a lot cheaper to resign this offseason vs the contract we gave him.  The big risk to not resigning him this past season was not the risk of losing him (as a restricted free agent he only leaves if we let him go), it was him having a breakout season that would propel him to a max or near max contract.  As it turns out, I don't imagine he'd command anything much different than what he has and that was with the best season of his career this year.  So think Jeff has a point here even if I 100% agree with you that we needed to keep Hunter.  With JC, the difference was that we either had to let him walk for nothing or resign him by the time the decision point arrived.  With Hunter, we still had a year before we reached that point.

4.  Several of us had concerns about the DM deal at the time.  Mine two biggest concerns were about the cost vs his contract (i.e., he could walk after two seasons) and his proficiency/efficiency as a scorer.  Not much else to be said about this.

5.  Frankly, the Lauri + 2 firsts for JC sounds like it never happened to me.  You have to pry first round picks out of Danny Ainge's dying, clenched first.  I am definitely worried about JC's future and fit with the team after this year to a significantly higher degree than I was after last season.  I am a fan of his but I'm now convinced it will never be workable with him and CC as our starters.  OO has come of age and is ready for more, imo.  We'll need to make some moves in the frontcourt in the future.

1. We all agree about the timing. My guess was Travis jumped the gun. He knew Kevin wasn't going to start and with Bogi back, it would have been tough to get mins. Sadly, we didn't fit and Bogi was hurt so he assumed things that didn't happen and what did happen shows why we should have waited. 

2. Yep. Still, there wasn't a need to get rid of Nate at that time. At least not at the beginning of the season. 

3. I believe he would be even more expensive. There is still a massive need for what he is within the league. Look at big wings who can defend and shoot across the league, it's like 12 of them and the demand is extremely high.   

4. You were one of the ones I remember with me on the fences. 

5. JC just didn't fit the minute we landed CC. JC tried to adjust by adding to his range which helped but far too often, he would disappear against bigger and better comp. Now, he just struggles as the position he's in is a lot better than it was two years ago. PFs have made major improvements. He's becoming what I always thought he would be. A high end 6th man. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

3. I believe he would be even more expensive. There is still a massive need for what he is within the league. Look at big wings who can defend and shoot across the league, it's like 12 of them and the demand is extremely high.   

I'm not sure how he ever got paid more than Mikal Bridges who is the rich man's version of Hunter.  I guess we'll see what market value looks like this offseason for wings with similar two-way production but I don't think he would be earning more coming off this season on an injury like he is than what he is already getting.  I'm also not one of the people is overly offended by his deal but I don't think there is much upside for him in terms of salary without being more impactful.

Even if he did earn more, the question for me is whether that incremental amount more (I don't think it would be much if anything) would be worth the risk that he got hurt earlier in the season or that he produced worse than last year (both scenarios which would have resulted in a significant overpay).  In sum, I don't think Jeff's point is a low BBIQ take by any means.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'm not sure how he ever got paid more than Mikal Bridges who is the rich man's version of Hunter.  I guess we'll see what market value looks like this offseason for wings with similar two-way production but I don't think he would be earning more coming off this season on an injury like he is than what he is already getting.  I'm also not one of the people is overly offended by his deal but I don't think there is much upside for him in terms of salary without being more impactful.

Even if he did earn more, the question for me is whether that incremental amount more (I don't think it would be much if anything) would be worth the risk that he got hurt earlier in the season or that he produced worse than last year (both scenarios which would have resulted in a significant overpay).  In sum, I don't think Jeff's point is a low BBIQ take by any means.

Mikal did like Kevin. He took the best deal for the team and for himself even if it wasn't the most he could get whereas Hunter wanted the max of what he could get. Ideally, you want players to do like Mikal but those guys aren't easy to find, they are extremely difficult to find. We are still looking for Tim Duncan. 

Rather pay Hunter what he's making now than 100+ million and all of these two-way guys will start getting insane deals soon. All of them. Watch their 3rd deal, it will be a lot bigger than what Murray will get. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by NBASupes