Official Game Thread: Hawks at Bucks (7 PM EST Tip)

[AHF]

Whether Nate specifically told JJ he wasn’t good enough to be a real NBA player or not, I don’t really care.  What I care more about was that Nate absolutely did not give a **** about developing JJ (as backed up by Nate’s public statements) and actively resisted giving him minutes.  This was a complaint and criticism from a lot of us at the time and was reported by the press as a major source of friction among the coaches. 

That was a mistake even if he didn’t go LP and submarine his own guy.

Edit:  I should also add that I have never seen any reason to believe that Sothron is making anything up that he posts.  Doesn't mean his source is correct, but I do trust in his integrity to only claim he was told something by a source if he was actually told that by someone with a real connection to the team. (And, fwiw, here there are facts that are pretty consistent with it so when I say I don't care I mean I don't care whether Nate specifically said it to JJ which would be crazy rude for a coach to say to a 19 or 20 year old kid or if this was a telephone game version of events where Nate said it in a coach's meeting or something but then eventually the source tells Sothron that Nate said it directly to JJ).  

[Final_quest]

So many good plays, but the defense took over the game.  They shut Dame down and put up enough of a wall on Giannis to neutralize him.  

I pretty much liked something from everyone.  Dre had 7 point stretch.  Murray played solid on both ends.  Bogi had some lethal shots and Trae got it in gear for a stretch.  Jalen is a menace.  

We still haven't seen good Trae for a whole game.  He doesn't even have his floater working yet.  
 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

25 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So you definitely want hero ball to continue...interesting to say the least!

You know why the 60 win Hawks got swept in the EC Finals?

1) both of their defensive wings were either out or not 100%

2) No one on the team was capable of putting the team on his back and carrying the team.

Every great team needs a hero. Unless you're the 2004 Detroit Pistons with an all time great defense, you don't win without a player or players capable of being the "hero".

The 30 foot 3 pointer that you and others hate, is NOT a hero ball shot. It's a shot that Trae has taken and made since his high school days.

No coach should ever try to take that shot from him. He gets better looks on a 30 foot 3, than he does on 24 foot 3s.

Trae has only made 6 threes this season out of 22 shots.

He's 4 - 6 on shots 30 ft+

[kg01]

7 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Oooohhh star ️.. ok I’m on the train now but star ️, wow, @kg01 come get ya boy Saff before we go at it here. I love what the kid has done but STAR is premature, more premature than.. well.. u know  

Slander!  JJ is Lebron-esque.  Now everybody on the bandwagon is giving you sideeye like you just farted.  You thought it was a silent-but-deadly but that was just because you had on earphones. 

[Final_quest]

5 hours ago, Sothron said:

As I have told you more than once in private IDGAF if you believe me or not. I know what I was told and it was from sources I trust. Nate tried to kill that kid's career and he absolutely deserves to be called out on it. 

I believe that someone told you that.  Have no idea why people are acting like you haven't posted here for 20+ years and never spread disinformation.  

Probably should just talk about the game in this thread.  No one so far is wishing we still had Collins, even in our losses.  Jalen is the kind of guy who could potentially play every position on the court.  Gonna be a fun ride to watch him develop.  

[thecampster]

5 hours ago, Sothron said:

Is Nate currently employed by any team? Did Nate not say in public he wasn't in the development process anymore? Did Nate not point blank refuse to play Jalen? You heard the same things that @thecampster and I said about this in the insider messages and what we've said here in public about it. 

It is what it is. I didn't make him say that to Jalen or treat Jalen like he did. Nate did those things. 

I'll speak for myself on this one.

1) Why Nate didn't play JJ? (mostly conjecture here, a bit of fact).

Nate is old school. Forwards don't bring the ball up. Guards facilitate. Defense is 1v1, funnel drivers to the bigs. Forwards finish on the break. High pick n roll. ISO.  A number of things inherent in JJ's game are contrary to Nate's style.  JJ is a grab and go, penetrate and dish, fill passing lanes, slashing cutter, help/strip/block type of hybrid.  Nate likes traditional roles, technically, JJ can play 3 and 2 half positions on offense. Fit over talent.  Nate wanted (the best 1, the best 2, the best 3) traditional role at each position.  There are better traditional 4's than JJ. Collins is one and in a world where traditional 1970's 80's basketball is played, Collins > JJ. This ain't 1978. The game is better, faster, more complicated now.
 

2) What did Nate say to JJ?

Most of what Nate says comes off harder than intended as he's more of a my way or the highway guy. I don't have 1st hand knowledge of the conversation, but what I do know is Nate was adamant JJ get better at setting picks, give the ball up immediately after a rebound and give it to a guard, learn traditional post up moves, stop leaving his man when the ball swung to the other side of the floor.  I believe it probably was more along the lines of "If you don't learn to do or stop doing XYZ, you'll never make it in this league."

3) Was there friction?

The biggest point of friction on the team was shot selection, ball movement, shot sharing as it related to Trae/CC and JC/BB/Hunter.  There were 2 coaching camps. One was very into developing a more balanced offense where the other 3 got more shots. The other (Nate's camp) was into developing the short rotation of 8 men as a way to get more people shots (more floor time for 8 players).  But perhaps the 2nd greatest point of contention was playing time for deserving players.  If BB/Hunter do not start the season with the injury bug last year, you may have never seen AJ on the floor either. However, almost all of the coaches were clamoring for JJ to get more time on the floor and be allowed to do his thing. Nate dug in his heels.  The kid won't get time over Collins/Gallo/Others until he can do PF things better than Collins/Gallo.  This is where I believe point 2 stems from.

4) Was Nate wrong?

It depends on your vantage point.  If we were in the first year of rebuild with Trae/JC, JJ would have been the best starting 3. Not because he's a 3 but because young teams fly around and do young legs things.  Nate was trying to build a traditional deep run playoff team and his strategy wasn't off, just his talent recognition.  Rumors last year were that management and staff wanted to move Collins by the deadline and put JJ in as the full time starter at PF. That trade never materialized as we overvalued JC and the cost of his contract. Nate's insistence of misusing JJ is one of the many reasons he was let go.


 

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Whether Nate specifically told JJ he wasn’t good enough to be a real NBA player or not, I don’t really care.  What I care more about was that Nate absolutely did not give a **** about developing JJ (as backed up by Nate’s public statements) and actively resisted giving him minutes.  This was a complaint and criticism from a lot of us at the time and was reported by the press as a major source of friction among the coaches. 

That was a mistake even if he didn’t go LP and submarine his own guy.

See my just posted post. This was something I dropped on the board about a week before that article dropped.

[kg01]

Heh, I'm just sittin back watching the insiders eat their own.  The outsiders never do that to each other .... except that one time .... and those other 10 times and ... ya know what, I'll just sit this one out. 

[kg01]

On the game, I always find it hilarious when a team's strategy vs Trae is to pick up full court and be physical .... then their fans act all shocked when that leads to copious fouls.  He didn't even have to bait any fouls, Bux were just givin em out like year-old halloween... er, 'fall fest' candy. 

[thecampster]

7 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Heh, I'm just sittin back watching the insiders eat their own.  The outsiders never do that to each other .... except that one time .... and those other 10 times and ... ya know what, I'll just sit this one out. 

I'm not hungry!

[Peoriabird]

22 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

You know why the 60 win Hawks got swept in the EC Finals?

1) both of their defensive wings were either out or not 100%

2) No one on the team was capable of putting the team on his back and carrying the team.

Every great team needs a hero. Unless you're the 2004 Detroit Pistons with an all time great defense, you don't win without a player or players capable of being the "hero".

The 30 foot 3 pointer that you and others hate, is NOT a hero ball shot. It's a shot that Trae has taken and made since his high school days.

No coach should ever try to take that shot from him. He gets better looks on a 30 foot 3, than he does on 24 foot 3s.

Trae has only made 6 threes this season out of 22 shots.

He's 4 - 6 on shots 30 ft+

I don't think one guy on this team is that guy every night.  Some nights maybe but not every night so to anoint a player to dominate the shots every game on a team like this is foolishness.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

Who do you think Nate was talking about with his infamous "I am not in the development process" quote? It was Jalen.

I took that as being Brice Lewis opinion and not a matter of fact because the statement  don't fit the facts.   Nate Played AJ Griffin more than Quin does now.   Nate also played OO.   And Nate played JJ.

Here's the starting 5 from the start of last season..

 

What you see there is Griffin, JJ, and OO making Starts. 

He didn't have to play any of them considering we had the Holidays and Frank the Tank.  But I know.. that goes against the narrative. 

If he truly hated JJ and thought that he would be out of the league and Never be shit, why did he play him?  I mean...  6 starts in a row...

I mean... 

JJs Splits during Nate's time.

In December, he logged 20+ minutes per game...

 

OO's splits

In December  26 mpg...  IN January 29 mpg. 

 

AJG Splits

 

By the numbers, you can tell when Nate left...     AJ was playing 27 mpg as a rookie... and we had JHoli.

 

The statement about not playing young players that need development....  Doesn't fit.   AJ played more minutes under Nate than he has Under Quin... That's the fact. 

 

 

 

[kg01]

30 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I'm not hungry!

Eh, let's just say you mightve been lumped in to obscure my true target.  

[MarylandHawk]

10 hours ago, JTB said:

One thing I noticed is that tonight , Trae stayed very high at the top of the arc , which made it easier for him to see the traps or off ball gaps of the defender easier.

Lately Trae has been finding himself in easy traps at the top corners of the 3pt line. It just makes a lot more sense if he runs most his plays at the top of the arc if he’s going to have the ball in his hands. That way he can dictate the defense and figure out where the openings will be.

I personally liked this game from Trae even though he only went 5/14 but I will take it ! 11 dimes and he wasn’t forcing all his shots. He did for 2 or 3.

the effort defensively was there by Trae and the whole team.

Nah but I do agree with him playing close to starter minutes on nights he has it going .

I noticed this too. They were picking up Trae at half court. The best thing about it though was that the entire team understood the spacing and started their offense like a 5 out but from half court instead of the three point line.  I knew right away that Trae would take advantage of that with his passing or dribble penetration. That is the magic of being able to make shots from long distance. 

[macdaddy]

Great game.   I swear though it really felt like the refs were trying to make the game close but Bucks were just uninterested in taking the gift.  

But we really took it to them on D for the most part.  Great to see.  

I still think they are going to miss Bud and Jrue a LOT.  

[kg01]

It was Dame time vs the sixers .... because of 17 free throws.

Droppa da mic... 

[macdaddy]

Hey @shakes we had a Trae Young end of the quarter half court heave at the end of the third.  He missed. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

I believe that someone told you that. 

Ya I’m in this boat too. I don’t think Soth is lying to us or anything but whomever told him that Nate straight up said that to Jalen, it’s just extremely hard for me to believe it being true. Again Nate was a crap coach who had mailed it in but saying that to a young player.. I don’t know man, that’s pretty evil of Nate if he did say that. In this day and age though, I just don’t see Nate saying that even if he was thinking it.

[thecampster]

6 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya I’m in this boat too. I don’t think Soth is lying to us or anything but whomever told him that Nate straight up said that to Jalen, it’s just extremely hard for me to believe it being true. Again Nate was a crap coach who had mailed it in but saying that to a young player.. I don’t know man, that’s pretty evil of Nate if he did say that. In this day and age though, I just don’t see Nate saying that even if he was thinking it.

Well and we've all heard what someone said and took it to the extreme in our heads. Nate might have said, cut you're hair, you'll never get a good commercial with that hair and JJ heard, "you'll die in College Park and I'll own your soul for a 1000 years".  At least I have an ex who heard things like that.

[Spud2nique]

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

and I didn't want this to look like Jalen complained on a MB about Nate. 

 

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

I know one of the reasons he was fired was his complete refusal to play or develop Jalen it is safe to post about it now. 

 

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

"I am not in the development process" quote? It was Jalen.

 

 

Soth… this isn’t an “I don’t believe you thing” it’s more of a “whoever told you this is full of crap “…

I’m not going down this rabbit hole again that ends in Soth saying I don’t believe him again. My thoughts are .. 

1. I am pretty sure Nate didn’t say that.

2. Even if he did who gives a he’s gone, Lloyd is gone.. Bud is gone. 
 

Soth, again I believe you tomorrow if you come out and say Bud used to spank Dwight on the butt and he seemed to like it.. 

but this one.. man, Nate would have had to be straight up evil.

[Gray Mule]

50/50.  Falcons lose.  Hawks win!

Early defense caused turnovers and, with a fast break, Hawks opened up the game and had to hold on once when the lead srunk to one, to only explode again and pull away!  Great first win of the season.