Official Game Thread: Hawks at Raptors (1 of 2)

[shakes]

36 minutes ago, Diesel said:

"

"This is the league's most disappointing team. The Hawks are going nowhere, with a dispiriting night-to-night sameness. They would likely blame it on the injury to Jalen Johnson, a sizzle of energy and rebounding and defense who was Atlanta's second- or third-best player through 15 games. De'Andre Hunter has also missed time recently, forcing the Hawks to play either super-small (with all three of Trae Young, Dejounte Murray, and Sixth Man of the Year candidate Bogdan Bogdanovic) or super-big with both Clint Capela and Onyeka Okongwu.

Every team deals with injuries. The Hawks have flat-lined at 9-14.

Their offense looks fine on paper -- fifth in efficiency! Hooray! But so many possessions are your-turn, my-turn exercises in boredom."

Trae Young vs the Raptors

Dan Hamilton-USA TODAY Sports

There were plenty more criticisms from Lowe, especially on how the Hawks are operating their offense: 

"Capela shrugs three times before the Hawks trigger any action. Once Dejounte Murray gets the ball, Trae Young turns into a statue; he spends almost the entire possession standing atop the "E" and then the "R" in the "arena" wordmark. Neither Hawks star guard has much juice off the ball. They still take a ton of mid-range shots; Quin Snyder, in his first full year as head coach, has only coaxed small stylistic tweaks.

Playing in such a predictable system where two players do almost everything has to suck some spirit from the rest of the team -- spirit and fight you need to build a competitive defense. That effect might be larger when one of those two players is also the worst defender on the team -- someone others must cover for every possession.

The Hawks traded a bundle of first-round picks to pair Murray and Young, and the experiment has not paid off. The team has been mediocre since the 2021 conference finals -- one game under .500 combined over two-plus subsequent seasons, with three total playoff wins. If they reach Jan. 15 in this state, everything should be on the table going into the trade deadline."

De'Andre Hunter guarding Tobias Harris

Kyle Ross-USA TODAY Sports

This is not the first time this week that Lowe has had criticism for Atlanta. 

Lowe and Kevin Pelton were discussing the Hawks yesterday on his Lowe's Podcast, the Lowe Post, and when talking about the nicest thing he could say about Atlanta this season, this is what Lowe had to say:

"My nice thing to say about the Hawks is that they have achieved clarity and that clarity is that their team is not good. This has not worked. The 2021 Conference Finals run is a long time and mega trade ago. The Hawks are 9-13, they are 5th in offense, which is fine, and 27th in defense and I just hate watching them. I hate watching them. They are -26 with Murray and Young on the floor together with an offensive rating that would be about average and if this is what they are..."

Lowe did have high praise for how forward Jalen Johnson was playing before he got hurt:

"Jalen Johnson was their second-best player before he got injured. They have something in that dude. He was their second-best player. You could argue with the way that Trae Young was shooting that he might have been the best player on the team."

OMG, he's saying everything I'm thinking!!!

 

yea this team is garbage and has been garbage for since 5 games into last season.

 

And Trae is still a joke without the ball and THAT has a MAJOR impact on the team whether people here want to admit it or not.  No one likes watching the so called leader of the team just stand around anytime he doesn't have the ball.  It's disheartening and kills the locker room.   

[akay]

18 minutes ago, shakes said:

MAJOR impact on the

What proof do you have that Trae's off-ball tendencies have any effect on the locker room?

Again, no player in the world just runs around randomly - off-ball offense takes a team effort starting with the coach implementing those plays which we HAVE seen a lot more of since Quin's tenure began.

[shakes]

12 minutes ago, akay said:

What proof do you have that Trae's off-ball tendencies have any effect on the locker room?

Again, no player in the world just runs around randomly - off-ball offense takes a team effort starting with the coach implementing those plays which we HAVE seen a lot more of since Quin's tenure began.

the proof is in the pudding.    even Lowe mentions it in the article.  Watching 2 guys do all the work, watching your so called leader just stand around, watching your star player continually choose to stand around behind the play yelling at refs rather than play defense...these are all things that can suck the life out of the rest of the team.   And the first thing to go when that happens is effort.  And defense is 90% effort.

 

1+1 = 2

[AHF]

Definitely think the depiction of Trae as unimproved on defense is unfair as is the idea that he is still taking the same number of long 2's he was under Nate.  (Under Nate he took 12.6% and 11.4% of his shots as long 2's and is only taking 7.4% this year.  Add on an increase in 3's from 33.1% of his shots last year to 42.6% this year and it is a pretty big change in shooting habits.)

But the overall takeaway on the Hawks that things aren't working seems to be one that aligns with the opinions of most of us, unfortunately.

[akay]

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

the proof is in the pudding.    even Lowe mentions it in the article.  Watching 2 guys do all the work, watching your so called leader just stand around, watching your star player continually choose to stand around behind the play yelling at refs rather than play defense...these are all things that can suck the life out of the rest of the team.   And the first thing to go when that happens is effort.  And defense is 90% effort.

 

1+1 = 2

lol, so you got nothing but speculation - cool

[kg01]

39 minutes ago, akay said:

lol, so you got nothing but speculation - cool

Jes doing that thing where he sees somebody write something negative and he's eating it up like Zion at a KFC buffet.  Do better, @shakes.  Do better. 

[shakes]

53 minutes ago, akay said:

lol, so you got nothing but speculation - cool

it's called having a working set of eyes.

[shakes]

16 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Jes doing that thing where he sees somebody write something negative and he's eating it up like Zion at a KFC buffet.  Do better, @shakes.  Do better. 

what did I say that was wrong?

[akay]

10 minutes ago, shakes said:

it's called having a working set of eyes.

So what happens if someone else with a working set of eyes disagrees? Are both folks wrong? Or is that not enough evidence to make conclusive statements about anything?

I mean, I get enjoying that drama from the stories we create in our heads, but trying to present all that as if it's grounded in objective reality is funny 

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, shakes said:

what did I say that was wrong?

Man, where do you want me to start? 

[Final_quest]

12 minutes ago, shakes said:

what did I say that was wrong?

Trae has played better defense this year and actually after a slow shooting start he has played some of the best ball of his career the past month.  If his standing around is so detrimental, how do we have one of the top offenses in the league?  

I'm guessing Zach Lowe watches just enough of the Hawks to make a credible comment.  Looking to him as the guy who understands Trae and our team is gonna get you off target.  He basically spouted every false trope about Trae that exists.  

[shakes]

8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Trae has played better defense this year and actually after a slow shooting start he has played some of the best ball of his career the past month.  If his standing around is so detrimental, how do we have one of the top offenses in the league?  

I'm guessing Zach Lowe watches just enough of the Hawks to make a credible comment.  Looking to him as the guy who understands Trae and our team is gonna get you off target.  He basically spouted every false trope about Trae that exists.  

Reread the article.  The standing around affects the effort on defense by the rest of the team.

[shakes]

18 minutes ago, akay said:

So what happens if someone else with a working set of eyes disagrees? Are both folks wrong? Or is that not enough evidence to make conclusive statements about anything?

 

no, if two people with a working set of eyes disagree the answer is not that both are wrong.  The answer is that one of them has working eyes but a broken brain.

[JayBirdHawk]

The one thing I can agree on is 'not getting back on defense' while arguing about not getting a call.

The rest is..........as expected.

[benhillboy]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

"

"This is the league's most disappointing team. The Hawks are going nowhere, with a dispiriting night-to-night sameness. They would likely blame it on the injury to Jalen Johnson, a sizzle of energy and rebounding and defense who was Atlanta's second- or third-best player through 15 games. De'Andre Hunter has also missed time recently, forcing the Hawks to play either super-small (with all three of Trae Young, Dejounte Murray, and Sixth Man of the Year candidate Bogdan Bogdanovic) or super-big with both Clint Capela and Onyeka Okongwu.

Every team deals with injuries. The Hawks have flat-lined at 9-14.

Their offense looks fine on paper -- fifth in efficiency! Hooray! But so many possessions are your-turn, my-turn exercises in boredom."

Trae Young vs the Raptors

Dan Hamilton-USA TODAY Sports

There were plenty more criticisms from Lowe, especially on how the Hawks are operating their offense: 

"Capela shrugs three times before the Hawks trigger any action. Once Dejounte Murray gets the ball, Trae Young turns into a statue; he spends almost the entire possession standing atop the "E" and then the "R" in the "arena" wordmark. Neither Hawks star guard has much juice off the ball. They still take a ton of mid-range shots; Quin Snyder, in his first full year as head coach, has only coaxed small stylistic tweaks.

Playing in such a predictable system where two players do almost everything has to suck some spirit from the rest of the team -- spirit and fight you need to build a competitive defense. That effect might be larger when one of those two players is also the worst defender on the team -- someone others must cover for every possession.

The Hawks traded a bundle of first-round picks to pair Murray and Young, and the experiment has not paid off. The team has been mediocre since the 2021 conference finals -- one game under .500 combined over two-plus subsequent seasons, with three total playoff wins. If they reach Jan. 15 in this state, everything should be on the table going into the trade deadline."

De'Andre Hunter guarding Tobias Harris

Kyle Ross-USA TODAY Sports

This is not the first time this week that Lowe has had criticism for Atlanta. 

Lowe and Kevin Pelton were discussing the Hawks yesterday on his Lowe's Podcast, the Lowe Post, and when talking about the nicest thing he could say about Atlanta this season, this is what Lowe had to say:

"My nice thing to say about the Hawks is that they have achieved clarity and that clarity is that their team is not good. This has not worked. The 2021 Conference Finals run is a long time and mega trade ago. The Hawks are 9-13, they are 5th in offense, which is fine, and 27th in defense and I just hate watching them. I hate watching them. They are -26 with Murray and Young on the floor together with an offensive rating that would be about average and if this is what they are..."

Lowe did have high praise for how forward Jalen Johnson was playing before he got hurt:

"Jalen Johnson was their second-best player before he got injured. They have something in that dude. He was their second-best player. You could argue with the way that Trae Young was shooting that he might have been the best player on the team."

Is the first excerpt from today’s ESPN’s piece titled “Hawks Stuck in Mud?”

[Diesel]

37 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Is the first excerpt from today’s ESPN’s piece titled “Hawks Stuck in Mud?”

no.?  I dont think so...  It's a commentary on Zach Lowe's piece... I think..

It's called.

"Zach Lowe Labels the Hawks as the NBA's Most Disappointing Team"

[TheNorthCydeRises]

 

Take the Hawks ( straight up ) . . and the Over 241.5

 

127 - 117

 

BOOK IT!!

Edited December 16, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Jody23]

For the most part tonight, Trae and DJ did a great job of attacking WITHIN the offense.  The ball wasn't sticking much and when the ball swung, they were mostly decisive on attacking a closeout or taking the open jumper.  If they play that way consistently, they'll win more than lose.  You gotta trust your sets and realize you'll get plenty of good shots.

[Vol4ever]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:20 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

 again.

can you elaborate further?

Jay ownership don't wanna spend $$$.  They want to make a move but a low budget one.  Same reason Travis left.