Official Game Thread: Hawks at Raptors (1 of 2)

[bleachkit]

Hawks need a dominant wing or big. I know, good luck finding one of those. But I still think ideally, Trae would our number 2 to dominant big or wing.

[JayBirdHawk]

40 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

And... as much as people here love to take shots at Ressler

And as long as the primary objective is to remain Tax-less at the expense of the on court product, trading Bs and Cs for Fs - we'll continue in this loop. Just not good enough.

[Mikey]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

There is no way in the world anyone is taking Lively at this stage over CC. 

Bogi is much better than Hardaway Jr 

Grant is better than Bey but Grant comp is JJ who's better than Grant. 

The Mavs aren't good bro, it's just Luka and his greatness. 

Lively is better than this washed CC. He's been a game changer for them this year. Every single gm would take the cheaper, younger, and better player. The hawks would too since they tried to trade caplea for that pick all summer long. If it wasn't for cam whitmore falling to 20 this wouldn't even matter cause Clint would be in a houston jersey right now. Hawks know his best days are behind him and have actively been trying to get off him this past year

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@Spud2nique your buddy made his TV debut last night.

 

 

lol no click on amateur night.

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

They won 3 straight directly after the trade, then went into a complete nosedive afterwards.

This season they're playing well, even better without Kyrie.

But let's check on Dallas in about a month, when their schedule tightens up.

They've played the 2nd easiest schedule in the league so far.

They've had a sugerpuff schedule. They aren't elite or as good as their record atm. They've been completely healthy too. They rank 4th in ortg and 22nd in drt, vs the Hawks 5th ortg and 28th drtg, and with an easy schedule. They won't finish with a much better record when it's all said and done. Luka is one of the most overrated players atm. He isn't transformatively better than Trae Young, he isn't Giannis, or Jokic or even Embiid. He's around Jason Tatum-tier, Trae is just below it, though if he continues to shoot north of 45% for the rest of the season like he has the last month he's right there too. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Hawks need a dominant wing or big. I know, good luck finding one of those. But I still think ideally, Trae would our number 2 to dominant big or wing.

In a championship team with the current state of the league? Yes, you are probably right. Maybe tanking for Wemby instead of trading for DJM would have been the smarter long tem move.

[JeffS17]

37 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

And as long as the primary objective is to remain Tax-less at the expense of the on court product, trading Bs and Cs for Fs - we'll continue in this loop. Just not good enough.

You guys realize Ressler hasnt had an opportunity to go into the tax except mediocre players, right?  I understand you wanted to pay tax— and deal with the roster building ramifications associated with that—for JC, but that doesnt suddenly make JC a good trade piece or put us in a position to upgrade talent.  It just makes us a more expensive team, that is now on a timer to compete, and we finish 6-8 seed range instead of 6-10……

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

You guys realize Ressler hasnt had an opportunity to go into the tax except mediocre players, right?  I understand you wanted to pay tax— and deal with the roster building ramifications associated with that—for JC, but that doesnt suddenly make JC a good trade piece or put us in a position to upgrade talent.  It just makes us a more expensive team, that is now on a timer to compete, and we finish 6-8 seed range instead of 6-10……

This is just misleading at best.  We had a chance to go into the tax for Murray.  We chose to dump these 'mediocre' players instead.  

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, macdaddy said:

This is just misleading at best.  We had a chance to go into the tax for Murray.  We chose to dump these 'mediocre' players instead.  

Little did we know Murray is a mediocre player himself 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Little did we know Murray is a mediocre player himself 

Maybe but that's beside the point.  Certianly the org thought he was a big acquisition. 

[Atlantaholic]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Maybe but that's beside the point.  Certianly the org thought he was a big acquisition. 

Yup I know

[sturt]

[A defense of Ressler seems to] zero-in on a few trees [to] deflect from the forest. That's my take as I read some of these posts, anyways.

 

[]

I mean, I get it... [sports] can be a religion in many respects instead of a consumer recreation choice. There is significant psychological turmoil unless one can just adjust and be satisfied that it is what it is... to take it more like a Days of Our Lives fan once would understand that the joy of soap operas is found in just enjoying the mountain peaks while withstanding the valleys... not in holding out hope for some ultimate ascension into Utopia, or in NBA terms, a championship.

 

[JeffS17]

Just now, macdaddy said:

This is just misleading at best.  We had a chance to go into the tax for Murray.  We chose to dump these 'mediocre' players instead.  

So we want Ressler to go into the tax for a double PG backcourt lol... I mean, to each his own but that is not what I personally want.  I wouldn't make that call myself, and it doesn't have anything to do with penny pinching, it would just be a bad GM move that would cripple our future.  Going into the tax isn't just punitiuve to owners' wallets -- there are real penalties to constructing a contending roster. 

If you guys don't like our depth now, you would really hate it when we're in the tax for a Murray/Trae backcourt and Collins/Capela frontcourt, with tighter trade requirements, no SnTs, can't sign waived players, etc.  Try to keep another medicore guy like Heurter and we'd hit the second apron and basically have zero roster flexibility. 

So I keep asking if you guys really think Heurter and/or Collins on this roster is changing anything and the answer is: "we might win a few more games" or "we should try to win every game possible" which I find to be very short term thinking, at best.  It's very clear to me that Ressler wants to win, and he wants to pay the tax to do so, but he hasn't had an opportunity to do it yet.  I am very convinced he wanted to trade for Siakam/KAT/star player as the trigger to go into the tax and start contending -- but we haven't had that opportunity yet.

Ressler is not Sarver or Dolan or some unmotivated owner that just shows up to board meetings every year about the team and checks the latest valuation.  He and Jamie go to every single game and it's very clear to me that he cares.  Jamie herself is in the running for biggest Hawks fan in Atlanta.  Looking at the facts of the situation, it seems like he is not kidding that he wants to pay the tax.  Everyone here takes their frustration out on Ressler as the scapegoat but imo it's misplaced frustration; it's very en vogue to shit on billionaires so feels like an easy trap to fall into.  Do you guys think there are 20 other teams in the league that are also victims of their billionaire owners?  Would you guys suggest that Toronto would be contenders if their mean billionaire owner paid the tax for Vanvleet?

[sturt]

Oh. And. ICYMI... behold... the forest.

 

[Atlantaholic]

5 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

So we want Ressler to go into the tax for a double PG backcourt lol... I mean, to each his own but that is not what I personally want.  I wouldn't make that call myself, and it doesn't have anything to do with penny pinching, it would just be a bad GM move that would cripple our future.  Going into the tax isn't just punitiuve to owners' wallets -- there are real penalties to constructing a contending roster. 

If you guys don't like our depth now, you would really hate it when we're in the tax for a Murray/Trae backcourt and Collins/Capela frontcourt, with tighter trade requirements, no SnTs, can't sign waived players, etc.  Try to keep another medicore guy like Heurter and we'd hit the second apron and basically have zero roster flexibility. 

So I keep asking if you guys really think Heurter and/or Collins on this roster is changing anything and the answer is: "we might win a few more games" or "we should try to win every game possible" which I find to be very short term thinking, at best.  It's very clear to me that Ressler wants to win, and he wants to pay the tax to do so, but he hasn't had an opportunity to do it yet.  I am very convinced he wanted to trade for Siakam/KAT/star player as the trigger to go into the tax and start contending -- but we haven't had that opportunity yet.

Ressler is not Sarver or Dolan or some unmotivated owner that just shows up to board meetings every year about the team and checks the latest valuation.  He and Jamie go to every single game and it's very clear to me that he cares.  Jamie herself is in the running for biggest Hawks fan in Atlanta.  Looking at the facts of the situation, it seems like he is not kidding that he wants to pay the tax.  Everyone here takes their frustration out on Ressler as the scapegoat but imo it's misplaced frustration; it's very en vogue to shit on billionaires so feels like an easy trap to fall into.  Do you guys think there are 20 other teams in the league that are also victims of their billionaire owners?  Would you guys suggest that Toronto would be contenders if their mean billionaire owner paid the tax for Vanvleet?

You are making ZERO sense my dude. We are worse without those guys the last two years no doubt about it. No one is saying we are good enough to win a championship, but the move to bring Murray in was definitely a win now move, we gave up a shit ton of assets for him. Several first round picks. What is the long term thinking of losing games when we don't have our first round picks?

[macdaddy]

I understand why we want to be optimistic that the organization has a good plan for the team 

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

So we want Ressler to go into the tax for a double PG backcourt lol... I mean, to each his own but that is not what I personally want.

What?  Doesn't matter what i think.  They obviously thought this was a big move otherwise why do it?  Now you're just arguing that they are incompetent i guess?

So who is this mythical player that is "worth" going into the tax for.

And yeah I'll say it.  I'd be much happier with the team we have now plus Kev and JC.  Even if we're in the tax.  Whatever it takes where i don't have to be rooting for TLC, Wesley Matthews, Garrison Mathews, Justin Holiday, Jarret Culver, Kevin Knox, and praying to the almighty that the PF who hasn't played 100 games in the NBA doesn't get hurt or our season is scuttled. 

 

[JeffS17]

10 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

You are making ZERO sense my dude. We are worse without those guys the last two years no doubt about it. No one is saying we are good enough to win a championship, but the move to bring Murray in was definitely a win now move, we gave up a shit ton of assets for him. Several first round picks. What is the long term thinking of losing games when we don't have our first round picks?

 

10 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

What?  Doesn't matter what i think.  They obviously thought this was a big move otherwise why do it?  Now you're just arguing that they are incompetent i guess?

Yeah, I think you're right -- that is what I'm arguing.  The DJ move was splashy but never made a ton of sense to me.  I am on the @NBASupes side of pairing an elite front court player with Trae, and a borderline all-star PG never made sense to me, which is why I don't want to start a timer on this team until we fix the construction.  That trade felt relatively fair value at the time, even thought the fit was very questionable, but with having hindsight of the new CBA, it looks pretty bad.  Picks are more valuable than they were 2 summers ago.  

[Atlantaholic]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

 

Yeah, I think you're right -- that is what I'm arguing.  The DJ move was splashy but never made a ton of sense to me.  I am on the @NBASupes side of pairing an elite front court player with Trae, and a borderline all-star PG never made sense to me, which is why I don't want to start a timer on this team until we fix the construction.  That trade felt relatively fair value at the time, even thought the fit was very questionable, but with having hindsight of the new CBA, it looks pretty bad.  Picks are more valuable than they were 2 summers ago.  

99% of us hate the DJM move now in hindisght, but you can't shit on the front office and give the owner a pass on that strategy. If the front office and ownership are not on the same page, that is a massive issue. Fact is the DJM move was made to make us a contending team, and instead of buying in to this notion our front office made moves to slash the payroll. We BADLY needed Huerter early on in the year. Playing Justing Holiday's corpse heavy minutes instead of having Huerter for over a month cost us at least 3-4 games in the standings. And you say, well who cares, well, the Hawks played great against Boston in the playoffs, if they had finished 6th or 5th maybe we make another run. The team that made the finals last year was the 8th place Heat. Margins are thin in the east, 2-3 wins makes a difference.

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

99% of us hate the DJM move now in hindisght, but you can't shit on the front office and give the owner a pass on that strategy. If the front office and ownership are not on the same page, that is a massive issue. Fact is the DJM move was made to make us a contending team, and instead of buying in to this notion our front office made moves to slash the payroll. We BADLY needed Huerter early on in the year. Playing Justing Holiday's corpse heavy minutes instead of having Huerter for over a month cost us at least 3-4 games in the standings. And you say, well who cares, well, the Hawks played great against Boston in the playoffs, if they had finished 6th or 5th maybe we make another run. The team that made the finals last year was the 8th place Heat. Margins are thin in the east, 2-3 wins makes a difference.

I think I never really felt this roster was able to contend, with DJM, Heurter, JC, or all of the above.  I think that's the disconnect here.  I am waiting for an opportunity to pay the tax that I actually believe in, and then I will be mad if we do not do it.  If we traded for an elite center and started salary dumping under the apron, I'd stop renewing my season tickets, but I haven't seen any scenario where I felt we should enter the luxury tax.  I was actually happy we got rid of JC to allow more playing time for JJ because I think JC is an extremely limited and flawed player.  The fact we didn't have to attach a pick to him was a win for me.

[sturt]

37 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Everyone here takes their frustration out on Ressler as the scapegoat but imo it's misplaced frustration; it's very en vogue to shit on billionaires so feels like an easy trap to fall into. 

*raises hand*

 

I'm not sure how accurate "everyone here" is... seems to me, it's something less than "everyone" and closer to "a minority," but I'm not here often enough and don't spend a lot of time even when I do visit to be able to speak with any authority on that.

 

I will say, Jeff, it has been my observation that, in general, that assertion is accurate... common Joes and Janes who are fans tend to come to discussions/arguments with a premise that billionaires are all the same, and rarely ever are sufficiently invested, emotionally and financially, in their favored teams. It's just that ubiquitous skepticism/cynicism that hovers over "rich people" overall, really.

 

So, I won't pretend to speak for anyone else, because as I've hinted, I think there's something to the assertion that many are predisposed to be suspicious/critical of people who hold economic power, just as they are often suspicious/critical of those who hold political power.

 

I will speak for me, though, because I'm not one those. I'm simply and authentically not.

 

One, I don't hold any easily-triggered prejudice that some people hold toward wealthy people, ever. I'm a supporter of capitalism, and Adam Smith-endorsed economic philosophies. "Trickle down economics" is just... economics. It's just how things work. We can agree that you don't want wealth concentrated in a very few individuals, but you should want wealth and more of it for more and more people... because their money doesn't get buried in mason jars in their backyards, but gets invested in new ideas, new innovations, new efficiencies, and in expanding good products and good services to more of the earth's population.

 

Two, I am in that relatively tiny group of Cowboys fans who, win or lose, feel my team is blessed to have an owner who not only has deep pockets, but who, by evidence of both his words and his actions... and over many, many years... has made clear he is laser-focused on winning a Super Bowl as soon as possible. He may not be the smartest... that's a different discussion... but practically no one of any sobriety can argue that Jerry's priority is his priority.

 

Three, I was an avid Ressler apologist myself. He gave me a lot of Jerry Jones vibes in that way, but with the bonus (or so I thought) that he may have some humility that would actually allow basketball decisions to get made by widely-regarded basketball people instead of himself. It's never bothered me how much money Ressler has... to the contrary, it was reassuring, not just because it meant he had the resources, but that it suggested he's street-wise... Wall Street wise, that is... suggests he has had good instincts.

 

Four, I was an avid Ressler apologist myself... until I had the come-to-Jesus moment on June 26, 2023, and there was no way to deny any longer what the facts of the situation forced me to admit.

Honestly... it was like opening a bedroom door, and discovering suddenly your spouse wasn't who you'd always considered her to be... even defended her to be... and having no choice but to admit the relationship had been a sham, and I had been played for a fool. What supposedly the other person and I had shared as a common super important goal in life, it turned out, was exposed as a lie.

Now, like the scene I just painted, if it turned out that there was some misunderstanding that would be readily recognized within short order... like that it wasn't my spouse at all, but her twin sister in that bed, or like that it wasn't JC for a season pass to Six Flags, but a transaction that enabled another (arguably-helpful) transaction... then, sure, there was a sliver of potential that I would be found to have been too quick to judge, too prone to overreaction.

But. No. That didn't happen. What I thought happened, happened. And that said far too much to consider it merely a bad decision... it was, rather, an event that spoke volumes, nay a whole damn library, about Antony Peter Ressler's real self... his real priorities.

 

That's where we are, or at least, I am. It's not my fault. I've only reacted to what I've been forced to admit is reality.