Official Game Thread: Hawks at Raptors (1 of 2)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

 

They made me bet against Luka tonight

Under 46.5 points + rebs + asst

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I was cautiously optimistic about the DJ trade, but I had watched next to zero Spurs games and just heard he was a good defender.  Now, with some hindsight and new information, I don't feel like he's a +defender on the perimeter and the new CBA makes those picks we gave away sting even more.  The positive to all of this is we created a lot of value in him as an asset by re-signing to a nice deal, so he can either be our third option of the future or the centerpiece to a trade where we get someone that fits better.

This is just what I'm talking about.   Picks. Picks. Picks.  Do you miss your draft lottery party?  When you have a player like Trae, you go out and you get some players to put around him and you try to win and you say Forget the Picks and forget the Tax.   We went out and got Murray and then decided to run the team on the cheap.   Where they do that at.  So now we have a 37 year old player not named Lebron starting.   He averages 3 ppg.  Starting.   Because we have a paper thin bench.    We're not moving like championship teams move... and that includes this crying over picks. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I was a fan of the deal then and still ok with out now but I do have some concerns:

I wanted Murry here for the things he did with SAS that I liked:
Quick first step to get to the rim and get to the free-throw line. Rebound the ball for a guard his size. POA defense. Run the offense when Trae sits. Improve his 3pt shooting (which he has) and limit teams' ability to overload Trae on defense. 

Things I'm seeing that he has to clean up:
Early in this season he was driving the ball, loved it, but he has not been doing it enough recently. His dribble is too high which I think does not allow him to get to his spots quickly enough, he dances with the ball too much. When Trae sits, I want him to run the team more vs looking for his shot as much.  In the PnR, we take for granted what Trae can do with the type of passes he can make, DJ is just not as adept. He prefers a bounce pass or shuffle pass out the PnR, which works ok for OO, not so much for CC.  He's struggling on defense vs SG who are bigger, but his focus is not always there, and he is just not moving his feet, too much reaching.  Trae is always playing defense against bigger guys and things I'm seeing him do this season with just effort, no reason for DJ to be just getting picked off consistently as he has (same with Hunter). 
Quin still has work to do.

Well said.   I didn't look at him as being Trae nor did I look at him as being the second coming of Kawhi or Brown.  I looked at him as a person who can take the pressure off of Trae and if we had creative enough coaching, we can do a lot offensively.   Snyder has given me about 65% of what I'm looking for as far as creativity is concerned.   I love the fast breaking offense.   Dre more than anything needs to clean up his dribble and his BBIQ.   My hope is that Snyder can help him start to think the game.  I mean know where his people will be.  His shooting has improved a lot.  I like it. For me it was either him or Mitchell and we chose him. I like what we got... 

We need some defense at the 3 and 4... so that he can rover a little bit. 

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

Bruh sturt the ship has sailed man.. now the Jazz hold the bag now

 

 

 

This may be news to you, my friend (???)...

...but neither the Hawks before, nor the Jazz in this case, were/are trading JC because they figure a 2nd round pick is a better on-court basketball asset than a 26 yr old player who started all of last season.

THAT is the pivotal point you're evidently wanting to avoid.

Trading JC was a money thing for us, and if the Jazz do the same, it will be a money thing for them, too.

That's all that's material to that part of the discussion... again, a discussion that, put together with the KH trade one year before, betrays the fraud that the owner's marketing phrase "True to Atlanta" is.

[NBASupes]

JC should be making MLE max. That's the problem. He's a terrible fit for the modern NBA and his prototype is garbage. 

[NBASupes]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Hawks need a dominant wing or big. I know, good luck finding one of those. But I still think ideally, Trae would our number 2 to dominant big or wing.

Bro, I've been saying, the biggest issue is we lack a true best player. Trae ain't it. DJ definitely ain't it

[Vol4ever]

13 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Everyone knows we have too many fringe guys.  Really, the problem is we lack guys that don't have legit talent.

At the end of games, we're almost solely reliant on Trae or DJ making a shot, especially since the coach ( until recently ) refuses to play Bogi.  Our front line is also failing us on both ends of the court.  Can't get stops.  Can't get rebounds.  Can't create their own shot.

Your plan is to get some more fringe players that might fit better.  It's a minimal plan.

My plan is to get a true talent on the front line, while doing all of the things that 3 fringe players can do.  My plan is swing for the damn fences.

To not think that a player like Siakam wouldn't help this team immensely, is asinine. Siakam can even plan small ball center at the end of games, if need be.

Adding fringe players that made us all feel good 2.5 seasons ago, and expecting them to play at that level, is unrealistic ( especially in the case of Gallo ). 

 

Talent wins in this league.  We don't have nearly enough frontcourt talent.

Get the high end player, THEN go get the fillers.

 

You can do both, if you want to.

 

Couple weeks ago front office was working on a deal and was shot down by ownership I was told. Now I don't know the players in the deal.  I can see KK moving on possibly after the season.  

Edited December 15, 2023 by Vol4ever

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

They made me bet against Luka tonight

Under 46.5 points + rebs + asst

And of course, Luka almost has these totals early in the 3rd quarter.

Nevermind.  He's already at 31 - 10  and 5. 

So he would literally have to go out with injury for him not to go over the 46.5

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, theheroatl said:

Bruh sturt the ship has sailed man.. now the Jazz hold the bag now

 

 

 

JC gonna end up in Washington with Gallo and Delon.

[JayBirdHawk]

23 minutes ago, Vol4ever said:

Couple weeks ago front office was working on a deal and was shot down by ownership I was told. Now I don't know the players in the deal.  I can see KK moving on possibly after the season.  

 again.

can you elaborate further?

[JayBirdHawk]

48 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And of course, Luka almost has these totals early in the 3rd quarter.

Nevermind.  He's already at 31 - 10  and 5. 

So he would literally have to go out with injury for him not to go over the 46.5

He nearly had a triple double with 8 TOs. 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

JC gonna end up in Washington with Gallo and Delon.

Send Hunter up there too, they can take Schlenk out to dinner every week for handing out those contracts

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He nearly had a triple double with 8 TOs. 

Narrative:  Luka needs help

[benhillboy]

7 hours ago, theheroatl said:

Bruh sturt the ship has sailed man.. now the Jazz hold the bag now

 

 

 

“On both ends” lol.  As the Jazz proceed to immediately go out and win on the road without him, all their starters with crazy +/-.

I knew John’s career was headed left when he started getting tatted up being a kid from a military background where a clean appearance is so engrained.  That always reeks of a kid who’s bored and trying to find himself.  He’ll always have that epic playoff dunk where he snatched Embiid’s soul tho.  And a sh$t load of dough, that’s always nice.

Edited December 15, 2023 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

22 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Prefer AJ Griffin and Justin Holiday?

Last season’s AJ who was spinning for scoop layups and Aaron Holiday (.592 efg and 4:1 assist to turn in Houston) no question.  I look at Justin like the twin embryo that got eaten by the dominant one.

Edited December 15, 2023 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

But in this scenario I meant Luka at the point with Bogi-Bey-JJ-OO.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, benhillboy said:

“On both ends” lol.  As the Jazz proceed to immediately go out and win on the road without him, all their starters with crazy +/-.

I knew John’s career was headed left when he started getting tatted up being a kid from a military background where a clean appearance is so engrained.  That always reeks of a kid who’s bored and trying to find himself.  He’ll always have that epic playoff dunk where he snatched Embiid’s soul tho.  And a sh$t load of dough, that’s always nice.

Utah doesn't have a legit PG, so that hurts JC a little.

But Collins isn't playing bad basketball.  Utah's issue is that to achieve team balance, Collins probably should be coming off the bench so that he's not playing out of position.  He's played SF almost 30% of his minutes, because Utah has Maarkanen and Kessler playing PF and C.  Collins be in the corner waiting for the ball, much like what he did in ATL.  And he has to work and battle for his points.  And also to be honest, Kelly Olynyk

Of course, I think we'd all take him back here IF he were cool coming off the bench.  Or we'd start him IF 12 was traded and we moved JJ to starting SF.

 

When it comes to big men, Trae is a "king maker".  He got Collins paid.  He got Capela his extension.  He probably extended the careers of Alex Len and Damian Jones for a few years.  He definitely extended the life span of Dewayne Dedmon. 

The one big Trae hasn't been able to drastically improve, ironically, is Bruno.  But even in those limited minutes, the Hawks were usually ( + ) on the floor with Bruno and Trae together.  I distinctly remember a post where I broke down Bruno's assists, and how it was Trae Young that was feasting off of them, via handoffs and screens.

Put JC on a team with a decent PG, and enable him to play PF, he still has value in the NBA.  Maybe not starter level value, but value nonetheless.

[macdaddy]

7 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I knew John’s career was headed left when he started getting tatted up being a kid from a military background where a clean appearance is so engrained.  That always reeks of a kid who’s bored and trying to find himself.

I'm very confused by this.  This is a picture from JC's rookie season.

[benhillboy]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I'm very confused by this.  This is a picture from JC's rookie season.

I confused myself too lol.  I would’ve sworn he didn’t have any visible tattoos up until his second summer in the league, this man had heavy ink in college.  Isn’t  the first or last time foot inserted in mouth.  I always get a chuckle seeing Tatum’s leg tats and such.

If anyone has the Zach Lowe piece out today headlined by the Hawks please post at your earliest convenience @JayBirdHawk 

Edited December 15, 2023 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

"

"This is the league's most disappointing team. The Hawks are going nowhere, with a dispiriting night-to-night sameness. They would likely blame it on the injury to Jalen Johnson, a sizzle of energy and rebounding and defense who was Atlanta's second- or third-best player through 15 games. De'Andre Hunter has also missed time recently, forcing the Hawks to play either super-small (with all three of Trae Young, Dejounte Murray, and Sixth Man of the Year candidate Bogdan Bogdanovic) or super-big with both Clint Capela and Onyeka Okongwu.

Every team deals with injuries. The Hawks have flat-lined at 9-14.

Their offense looks fine on paper -- fifth in efficiency! Hooray! But so many possessions are your-turn, my-turn exercises in boredom."

Trae Young vs the Raptors

Dan Hamilton-USA TODAY Sports

There were plenty more criticisms from Lowe, especially on how the Hawks are operating their offense: 

"Capela shrugs three times before the Hawks trigger any action. Once Dejounte Murray gets the ball, Trae Young turns into a statue; he spends almost the entire possession standing atop the "E" and then the "R" in the "arena" wordmark. Neither Hawks star guard has much juice off the ball. They still take a ton of mid-range shots; Quin Snyder, in his first full year as head coach, has only coaxed small stylistic tweaks.

Playing in such a predictable system where two players do almost everything has to suck some spirit from the rest of the team -- spirit and fight you need to build a competitive defense. That effect might be larger when one of those two players is also the worst defender on the team -- someone others must cover for every possession.

The Hawks traded a bundle of first-round picks to pair Murray and Young, and the experiment has not paid off. The team has been mediocre since the 2021 conference finals -- one game under .500 combined over two-plus subsequent seasons, with three total playoff wins. If they reach Jan. 15 in this state, everything should be on the table going into the trade deadline."

De'Andre Hunter guarding Tobias Harris

Kyle Ross-USA TODAY Sports

This is not the first time this week that Lowe has had criticism for Atlanta. 

Lowe and Kevin Pelton were discussing the Hawks yesterday on his Lowe's Podcast, the Lowe Post, and when talking about the nicest thing he could say about Atlanta this season, this is what Lowe had to say:

"My nice thing to say about the Hawks is that they have achieved clarity and that clarity is that their team is not good. This has not worked. The 2021 Conference Finals run is a long time and mega trade ago. The Hawks are 9-13, they are 5th in offense, which is fine, and 27th in defense and I just hate watching them. I hate watching them. They are -26 with Murray and Young on the floor together with an offensive rating that would be about average and if this is what they are..."

Lowe did have high praise for how forward Jalen Johnson was playing before he got hurt:

"Jalen Johnson was their second-best player before he got injured. They have something in that dude. He was their second-best player. You could argue with the way that Trae Young was shooting that he might have been the best player on the team."