Official Game Thread: Spurs at Hawks

[terrell]

Lets be honest about what is really going on.

 

1. Trae- Terrible defender with no wingspan. Can’t stop penetration. Gives little effort on defense most nights. He can’t contest his own man. He can’t help and get back to run shooters off the 3 point line. D minus defender.

2. Huerter- Terrible on ball defender. Can’t stop penetration. Physically weak. Can’t help and get back to run shooters off the 3 point line. Has good size, and is a decent help defender. Can’t get around screens. D plus defender.

3. Hunter- Inconsistent defensively. Doesn’t rebound well. Doesn’t get in the passing lane or cause a lot of deflections. Excellent length, strength and footwork. Can stop penetration. Can’t get around screens. He can help and run a shooter of the line. B minus defender.

4. Collins- Can’t help and get back to shooters. Can’t stop penetration. Can’t guard bigger players. Can’t guard smaller players. Good help side shot blocker. Terrible awareness. C minus defender.

5. Capela- Can’t guard the perimeter. Can’t get back on defense. Can’t run shooters off the line. Can no longer help and recover to protect the rim. Can’t guard strong post players. Decent at contesting shots. Decent at covering the pick and roll. Excellent defensive rebounder. B minus defender.

 

 

You won’t win much with a starting lineup with 2 B minus defenders, and a bunch of terrible defenders. We can’t guard the 3 because we don’t have the foot speed to help and recover. And we can’t press up on the perimeter because we can’t stay in front of the ballhandler. So we sag and get smoked out of the gym.

 

Until we fix the defense(if its even possible with this group) nothing else matters...

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae right now is the solution and the problem. He's worth 30 wins. Same as prime Iso Joe, Smoove, Capela, prime Drummond, etc. 

For all of the love he get, you would think he's worth way more than Millsap or JC when those two are worth more. I still laugh when idiots on here try to say he's close to Al Horford. He's not even in the same area code. Horford worth 45 wins. The minute Horford came to Atlanta, we were instantly a playoff team. He was the main reason Florida won back to back. 

Trae defense isn't just bottom five bad. Seth Curry defense is bottom five bad but Seth defense doesn't hurt his teammates. Trae defense hurts his teammates defense. I've seen nothing like him in NBA history. He makes Jimmer look like Stacey f***ing Augmon on defense. 

I never seen someone so bad on that end of the court. 

Dude literally kills his elite world class offensive impact. Even if he mainly spams shit. Bron spams shit, so does Harden. 

So frustrating. I don't know if this team has the upsides to be more than 35 wins. Maybe 40 wins max. 

Yep...This team goes how Trae goes. Unfortunately on both sides of the floor. Altough he's an excellent offensive player, he has shown to be very imature person from start of this season up to now.... And untill he get his head straight this team will not be serious competitor for anything regardless of players around him.

 

Right now, from my point of view, the Hawks have internal players rebellion and it is against Trae and his approach to defensive end of court. If he shows up, willing to compete on that end of the floor, they will also. If he doesn't no one will even try to cover for him.

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[terrell]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae right now is the solution and the problem. He's worth 30 wins. Same as prime Iso Joe, Smoove, Capela, prime Drummond, etc. 

For all of the love he get, you would think he's worth way more than Millsap or JC when those two are worth more. I still laugh when idiots on here try to say he's close to Al Horford. He's not even in the same area code. Horford worth 45 wins. The minute Horford came to Atlanta, we were instantly a playoff team. He was the main reason Florida won back to back. 

Trae defense isn't just bottom five bad. Seth Curry defense is bottom five bad but Seth defense doesn't hurt his teammates. Trae defense hurts his teammates defense. I've seen nothing like him in NBA history. He makes Jimmer look like Stacey f***ing Augmon on defense. 

I never seen someone so bad on that end of the court. 

Dude literally kills his elite world class offensive impact. Even if he mainly spams shit. Bron spams shit, so does Harden. 

So frustrating. I don't know if this team has the upsides to be more than 35 wins. Maybe 40 wins max. 

And we've hitched our wagon to him....

 

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, terrell said:

Lets be honest about what is really going on.

 

1. Trae- Terrible defender with no wingspan. Can’t stop penetration. Gives little effort on defense most nights. He can’t contest his own man. He can’t help and get back to run shooters off the 3 point line. D minus defender.

2. Huerter- Terrible on ball defender. Can’t stop penetration. Physically weak. Can’t help and get back to run shooters off the 3 point line. Has good size, and is a decent help defender. Can’t get around screens. D plus defender.

3. Hunter- Inconsistent defensively. Doesn’t rebound well. Doesn’t get in the passing lane or cause a lot of deflections. Excellent length, strength and footwork. Can stop penetration. Can’t get around screens. He can help and run a shooter of the line. B minus defender.

4. Collins- Can’t help and get back to shooters. Can’t stop penetration. Can’t guard bigger players. Can’t guard smaller players. Good help side shot blocker. Terrible awareness. C minus defender.

5. Capela- Can’t guard the perimeter. Can’t get back on defense. Can’t run shooters off the line. Can no longer help and recover to protect the rim. Can’t guard strong post players. Decent at contesting shots. Decent at covering the pick and roll. Excellent defensive rebounder. B minus defender.

 

 

You won’t win much with a starting lineup with 2 B minus defenders, and a bunch of terrible defenders. We can’t guard the 3 because we don’t have the foot speed to help and recover. And we can’t press up on the perimeter because we can’t stay in front of the ballhandler. So we sag and get smoked out of the gym.

 

Until we fix the defense(if its even possible with this group) nothing else matters...

Yep...This team goes how Trae goes. Unfortunately on both sides of the floor. Altough spectacular ofensive player, he has shown to be very imature person from start of this season up to now, and that is fine given his age. But untill he get his head straight this team will not be serious competitor for anything regardless of players around him.

 

Right now from my point of view Hawks have internal players rebelion and it is against Trae and his approach to defensive end of court. If he shows up, willing to compete on that end of the floor, they will also. If he doesn't no one will even try to cover for him.

1. CP3 got no wingspan and he's one of the best defenders to play as a PG. Trae defense is just f***ing garbage. He got lateral quickness but he doesn't want to use energy because he needs it for what he really wants to do which is offense like Harden but he don't got James body or defensive versatility. He's insanely bad at every thing you need from a defender. Effort, awareness, feel for the game, will and determination. What's crazy is, he's capable to a degree but he refuses. Its Josh Smith level stubbornness. Trae just wants to do him. 

2. Kev is an excellent team defender and does a good just of communicating when screens are coming. He does fight through screens but you gotta let him know its coming. JC and Solo do it but the others aren't so good at it. 

3. Dre is consistent. He's good against size and struggles with quicker, smaller guards. That's not unusual. He's 6'8 230. Dre reminds me of a bigger, stronger, worse playmaking Kerry Kittles.

4. I don't agree with nothing you wrote on JC. 

5. Other than the can't get back on defense and he's superior to decent at both of those part you stated, I think this is fair on Clint. He's a much better than B- defender. Clearly an A- defender. Not the A+ defender he was last year. He's not a great post defender against post scoring bigs.

 

I think our defenders are a lot better than this outside of Trae who's way worse than even your typical WOAT. 

I actually think Trae Young is the worst defender in the history of sports. Yes, he's much worse defensively than even Adam Dunn in Baseball. He's game changing bad on defense. He makes others around him much worse.

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[terrell]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. CP3 got no wingspan and he's one of the best defenders to play as a PG. Trae defense is just f***ing garbage. He got lateral quickness but he doesn't want to use energy because he needs it for what he really wants to do which is offense like Harden but he don't got James body or defensive versatility. He's insanely bad at every thing you need from a defender. Effort, awareness, feel for the game, will and determination. What's crazy is, he's capable to a degree but he refuses. Its Josh Smith level stubbornness. Trae just wants to do him. 

2. Kev is an excellent team defender and does a good just of communicating when screens are coming. He does fight through screens but you gotta let him know its coming. JC and Solo do it but the others aren't so good at it. 

3. Dre is consistent. He's good against size and struggles with quicker, smaller guards. That's not unusual. He's 6'8 230. Dre reminds me of a bigger, stronger, worse playmaking Kerry Kittles.

4. I don't agree with nothing you wrote on JC. 

5. Other than the can't get back on defense and he's superior to decent at both of those part you stated, I think this is fair on Clint. He's a much better than B- defender. Clearly an A- defender. Not the A+ defender he was last year. He's not a great post defender against post scoring bigs.

 

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. CP3 got no wingspan and he's one of the best defenders to play as a PG. Trae defense is just f***ing garbage. He got lateral quickness but he doesn't want to use energy because he needs it for what he really wants to do which is offense like Harden but he don't got James body or defensive versatility. He's insanely bad at every thing you need from a defender. Effort, awareness, feel for the game, will and determination. What's crazy is, he's capable to a degree but he refuses. Its Josh Smith level stubbornness. Trae just wants to do him. 

2. Kev is an excellent team defender and does a good just of communicating when screens are coming. He does fight through screens but you gotta let him know its coming. JC and Solo do it but the others aren't so good at it. 

3. Dre is consistent. He's good against size and struggles with quicker, smaller guards. That's not unusual. He's 6'8 230. Dre reminds me of a bigger, stronger, worse playmaking Kerry Kittles.

4. I don't agree with nothing you wrote on JC. 

5. Other than the can't get back on defense and he's superior to decent at both of those part you stated, I think this is fair on Clint. He's a much better than B- defender. Clearly an A- defender. Not the A+ defender he was last year. He's not a great post defender against post scoring bigs.

I said Trae was a terrible defender with no wingspan... I didnt say he shouldnt be better than he is.. Just saying his wingspan aint helping...Chris Paul has 2 inches and a higher BB IQ than Trae...lol.... Hes one of the smartest players ever....

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[QuantumHawkz]

Again, the Hawks came out flat on D and on offense. This team has an effort and energy problem on both ends if the floor. It's the same ol recipe for disaster....the Hawks attempted 43 3pts while only scoring 60 points in the paint?????....you won't win many games like that.

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, terrell said:

And we've hitched our wagon to him....

 

He earned it. His playoff performance was top 3 of all players ahead of guys like LeBron. Only KD and Giannis was higher. While guys like Horford have 45 win floors, what good is it when they can raise your ceiling which you need in the playoffs? 

I really don't like putting Trae in the same league with Nique, Horford, Deke, or even Blaylock. There is a significant gap between 40-45 win floors. If you gotta spam shit till it get downloaded to win. Your shit ain't that good. That's that Drummond shit. 

For as much shit as Iverson gets on this site, he was worth 50 wins in his prime which is the same as Nique. That's 20 more than Trae. Trae got nearly as many player votes as Darius Garland who hasn't been on the national stage yet. I mean, honestly, has Trae played better than him this year.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, terrell said:

 

I said Trae was a terrible defender with no wingspan... I didnt say he shouldnt be better than he is.. Just saying his wingspan aint helping...Chris Paul has 2 inches and a bigger brain than Trae...lol.... Hes one of the smartest players ever....

CP3 has one inch on Trae wingspan wise and Trae has two inches on CP3 standing reach wise. 

You said Trae is a D- defender. I disagree, he's such a bad defender, he can't even get rated because he makes other worse on that end. 

[NBASupes]

People have tried to compare IT0 to Trae but I know IT0 was nowhere close to as bad on D as Trae. Not even close.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, terrell said:

"Trae ball" aint gonna get it done anymore........Teams have figured that shit out..... Take away the pick and roll and force Trae to shoot 3's or pass it to one of our JAGS..... If he's not on fire from deep, you have a good chance of winning..

We didn't see Trae ball last night. That's a problem.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

 

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

We got a lot of talented JAGS

Trae is his own worst enemy. Bro don't realize he's the common denominator in our losses. 

Brown and Tatum have tunnel vision, Trae doesn't have tunnel vision but he's selfish and if you can't shoot, he will tune you out offensively which will happen to Smart. 

If you can't shoot, what is he supposed to do? Keep feeding you the ball?

Strange rant tonight.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, JTB said:

Let’s talk about that….what’s the deal with this? Even if he’s considered a ball hog among his peers it’s still odd to me because it’s not like Trae is the first player in history to have a high ball usage ….lebron, harden, Kobe, Jordan…iverson….all of these guys have broken the offense and went into isolation time after time.

if there was a draft for two players to pick their teams in past all those players get picked high in their prime ….I don’t know the story but I believe trae isn’t liked for some other undisclosed reasoning. 

I've said since Trae's rookie year that the players don't particularly care for him. Especially the vet players. 

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

If you can't shoot, what is he supposed to do? Keep feeding you the ball?

Strange rant tonight.

Marcus Smart loves touches and his point was, what difference is Tatum and Brown to Trae as a teammate since Marcus doesn't like either one of them.

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

TRae is about to be paid 40 mill a year....We're about to be the Falcons with Matt Ryan contract..Especially if Trae not gonna play defense in the reg season..East is too good for that shit...

How many points given up last night was the result of Trae's bad defense? Not speculation but actual points given up?

Like you can look at a Spurs possession and say Trae was the guy they attacked or that's the guy Trae lost on that possession? 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

He couldn't even beat the Kyle Kuzma led Wizards the other night.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

How many points given up last night was the result of Trae's bad defense? Not speculation but actual points given up?

Like you can look at a Spurs possession and say Trae was the guy they attacked or that's the guy Trae lost on that possession? 

All of them. Trae Young is the exclusive problem defensively just like he's the solution on offense. He has elite impact on both ends. One for the best, one for the worst. 

[bleachkit]

Trae does have nights where at least he's active on defense. Some nights, like last night, he just lets them eat him up.

 

 

[benhillboy]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

All of them. Trae Young is the exclusive problem defensively just like he's the solution on offense. He has elite impact on both ends. One for the best, one for the worst. 

Trae’s putridity on defense is obvious: it takes that boy 84 games to post a full defensive win share.  The easiest team score in the NBA is a transition basket off his turnover.  But it’s surprising you think so much of his offensive impact when most of his peers obviously do not.  At a 35% usage you get so many diminished returns on lil homie.  I’ve always advocated for a 28% cap but that’s never gonna happen.  His assist to turn and three point shooting are good, not great.  His offensive metrics are always propped up by his outstanding FT attempts and percentage.  His midrange boon has been great for himself and the team I like how he finds those attempts.
 

But spamming long threes, PNR, and floaters all concentrated in the middle of the floor at his touch rate just creates a malaise over the team offense, evidenced by the higher team assist numbers and better on/off team offensive rating for Delon, who’s net rating is still holding steady at +8 over Trae’s.  I knew it would be better and I’d never seen Delon play before he got here but damn 8 points better for this long a stretch is alarming even to me.
 

Traes 2 pointers are assisted at a far lower rate than Demar freaking Derozan (and his 3s)  But can Trae hit contested shots from every possible spot inside the arc (and even behind the glass)?  No.  There are just too many areas he doesn’t operate in and too many areas where he isn’t an option as a playmaking recipient to give the offense the multiplicity you need from a heliocentric player.  Kevin and Bogi are average level playmakers: their abilities rise or fall with the actions going on off ball, it helps to have 4 options instead of 3.  When stating how bad a defender he is it goes hand in hand with how useless he is off ball.  That’s just a clear losing combination at his minutes and usage, see Hawks’ overall record since he’s been here.
 

If your “best” player can’t cut, screen, and be a plus defender you just playing checkers versus chess.  You know how much energy Jokic has to expend to cut to the basket as hard and fast as he does (where the Nuggets score at least a point every time)?  He does it about 5 times a game, let alone the dozen hard screens he sets.  How many useful cuts and screens from Trae in a week?  I’ll be generous and give him 4.
 

The highest impact leaders currently are all cut from the same cloth (Jokic, Butler, Giannis, CP3, Draymond)  and it’s simple. They enjoy role player tasks but have the elite feel to take over when need be (outside of Draymond)  Trae thinks getting hot from 30 feet excuses him from the brass tacks of the game sadly.

At the end of the day, not knocking him.  I would’ve thought all this obvious to Schlenk since Trae is the exact same guy he’s been since high school and has been groomed to play a style that looks team oriented to younger people but piss poor to someone who grew up watching a Stockton as you stated earlier about the generational divide between Trae viewers.

Edited February 12, 2022 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

I’m watching Stockton in a damn rerun of the AS game in Phoenix.  This dude is boxing out Bigs and running give and go.  It’s just a level of Point Guarding that Trae will never get and why I posted this summer about how much distance there would be between his and Stockton's fourth years in terms of win shares after being nearly identical for the first three.  Trae on pace for 8.4.  Stock had 14.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, benhillboy said:

I’m watching Stockton in a damn rerun of the AS game in Phoenix.  This dude is boxing out Bigs and running give and go.  It’s just a level of Point Guarding that Trae will never get and why I posted this summer about how much distance there would be between his and Stockton's fourth years in terms of win shares after being nearly identical for the first three.  Trae on pace for 8.4.  Stock had 14.

Im not sure Trae's game is adaptable. Bringing in Ben Simmons would have been huge. We could have tried new things. 

[Gray Mule]

SHOCKING FACTS THAT I HAVE LEARNED

1- Checked the NBA scoreboard.  Did you know that half the teams that played last night got beat?  It's true!

2- Box score: Hawks.  Every starter had a huge (-) at the end of their line.  Every bench player has a huge (+) at the end of their line.

3- Hawks played three quarters of last night's game well.  Check the scores by quarter.  Very close.  What happened?  Those five starters who have the (-) on their line lost the entire game before the bench could come in and do anything.  All the three point shots by the Spurs went in.  All the other Spurs shots went in.

4- Defense?  What's that?  Someone please explain this to our five starters.