Official Game Thread: Spurs at Hawks

[sturt]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

from my experience having court side seats on both players

Supes, all due respect... sincerely... you are as welcome to your perspective that your insight is superior as anyone else. I'll grant you that. I just don't grant that it actually is. You should reciprocate with a "fair enough," and acknowledge I'm just as welcome to my perspective on that side point... as well as my perspective pertaining to players who you, me, and everyone else have all seen for many, many seasons now.

Harden nor anyone else likes to lose. Harden and anyone else would love to win a trophy. But there's something different for some players beyond all that.

"The triple threat" theory says that people who excel in life... not just sports, but life... are most typically people who (a) carry an internal sense of superiority, that they believe they are, for whatever reason, special... (b) have a strong impulse control so that they don't get distracted very easily from doing what needs to get done in any given day... and (c) an internal sense of inferiority, that they perceive they have something to prove to the world.

I just don't see that in Harden that he has the bulging chip on his shoulder that makes it absolutely imperative that he wins a championship... he's missing the inferiority part of the recipe.

Again, consider my insight less informed than yours. And true, you're clearly far more invested mentally in this game than I could ever justify myself being, and that's put you in a position to overhear things that I wouldn't be privy to hearing. But your insight isn't significantly more informed, imo. There comes a point where it just can't be. Harden's been around too long. To the verbal side, he's just had too many interviews. To the non-verbal side, his body language on the court and off has been over-exposed, if anything, given how often his teams have been on a national stage.

[benhillboy]

Trae’s offense is just too concentrated.  It’s like a mediocre juice lol.  Only two small plots below the FT line where he shoots above league average, no corner threes for the opposition to defend.  They know Trae doesn’t like to even dribble outside the top of the arc, wings, or the middle of the floor, let alone shoot or pass (Murray and CP3 for comparison).  He doesn’t trust himself or his teammates in those areas, as he shouldn’t as he hasn’t been thoroughly trained to be a full-floor operator.:

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by benhillboy

[sturt]

That's interesting stuff... but/and I wonder if it's just the natural consequence of the offense that McM prefers to be run... and so it's the offense that maybe is too predictable (?).

Then again.

Last night was an off-night for a team that otherwise is looking down on 25-ish teams in terms of offensive output.

This team's glaring weakness is defense. It just is.

Last season, they were getting it done defensively (not great, but good enough during regular season... and very good-to-great in post season in the games they won anyhow), and CC was often regarded as having been key to that.

Somehow have to rediscover that, or yes, this season will be a giant disappointment in the end.

To me, it just makes it more imperative that the GM add an asset that would actually be deserving of some floor time and who could help stymie the opposition's better backcourt scorers.

 

[bleachkit]

6 minutes ago, sturt said:

That's interesting stuff... but/and I wonder if it's just the natural consequence of the offense that McM prefers to be run... and so it's the offense that maybe is too predictable (?).

Then again.

Last night was an off-night for a team that otherwise is looking down on 25-ish teams in terms of offensive output.

This team's glaring weakness is defense. It just is.

Last season, they were getting it done defensively (not great, but good enough during regular season... and very good-to-great in post season in the games they won anyhow), and CC was often regarded as having been key to that.

Somehow have to rediscover that, or yes, this season will be a giant disappointment in the end.

To me, it just makes it more imperative that the GM add an asset that would actually be deserving of some floor time and who could help stymie the opposition's better backcourt scorers.

 

I know you're bullish on this team. That this is the same team that went to the ECF. That we were a stepped foot away from winning it all. Well this isn't the same team. It might be the same personell, but it's not the same team. We arent clicking, we aren't gelling. Too many inexplicable losses, last night being another, to rationalize. Something isn't right.

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by bleachkit

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, sturt said:

That's interesting stuff... but/and I wonder if it's just the natural consequence of the offense that McM prefers to be run... and so it's the offense that maybe is too predictable (?).

Then again.

Last night was an off-night for a team that otherwise is looking down on 25-ish teams in terms of offensive output.

This team's glaring weakness is defense. It just is.

Last season, they were getting it done defensively (not great, but good enough during regular season... and very good-to-great in post season in the games they won anyhow), and CC was often regarded as having been key to that.

Somehow have to rediscover that, or yes, this season will be a giant disappointment in the end.

To me, it just makes it more imperative that the GM add an asset that would actually be deserving of some floor time and who could help stymie the opposition's better backcourt scorers.

 

Predictably of a Nate offense is a thing.

 ....plus our defense is really bad.  No one is talking on defense.

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I know you're bullish on this team. That this is the same team that went to the ECF. That we were a stepped foot away from winning it all. Well this isn't the same team. It might be the same personell, but it's not the same team. We arent clicking, we aren't gelling. Too many inexplicable losses, last night being another, to rationalize. Something isn't right.

 

It's not the same offense or defense either, nor the same coaches either.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 hours ago, sturt said:

This heel issue that took John out of the game... that's new, right?

 

He's been on the injury report for at least the past 3 games or so with it.

[sturt]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Well this isn't the same team. It might be the same personell, but it's not the same team. We arent clicking, we aren't gelling. Too many inexplicable losses, last night being another, to rationalize. Something isn't right.

 

I'm not big on making big blanket statements when this roster has only played together for about a month, and in that time defeated MIL and PHX and ran off a 7 game win streak.

My theory?

It's more difficult for those of you who bothered to pay attention to this team when it was routinely the case that McM had G-League quality players starting and otherwise in his rotation.

Thus, you see the whole of the season as one. You see 26-29, and take it as reflective of this roster's capacity to win.

I simply do not.

I see 26-29, but I see it as the state of the team's situation... which indeed, everyone acknowledges, is dire.

That, though is misleading if we're evaluating this roster's capacity to win. That rather is measured more accurately in the actual record in games where this roster was fully available to the coach. And that record is 9-4 right now.

 

That said, I do agree with the conclusion that something's not right.

That said, I do not agree with the assumption that the SAS game is any more telling than was the game immediately before it, when everything clicked.

We're not as good right now as what we appeared against IND (definitely), and at the same time, we're not as bad as what we appeared against SAS... and I say that because had we had any dependable offense as we normally do we still would have probably won last night's game.

We're crippled on defense, and that's the something that's not right.

We are capable. What's screwing it up? That's the 64K question.

 

[Spud2nique]

We came out flat, they hit us in the mouth and we never recovered from it. I didn’t expect them to come out so uninspired specially after Schlenk kept the crew together. Having said that, it’s one game and we gotta move on from it.

Trae had an off night. It happens to the best of them, sadly, it came on a night when others were off as well.

Tighten the perimeter D and close out on that 3 point line, to be fair though the Spurs surprised us with all those threes cuz they stink as a team shooting them.

Credit them, they played the better and smarter game.

GO HAWKS!!!

ps I voted 🗳 for Trae about a million times for the all star game AND I’M A MAN !!!! .. 

 

 

[sturt]

20 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Predictably of a Nate offense is a thing.

In the illustration of a "production" circle inside a "capacity to produce" circle... I'm just not real sure one can make a good case there's a lot of room between those two offensively.

Defensively?

Well, we have seen them be significantly better defensively. And I believe most of us probably thought coming into the season that once Big2O and Dre got healthy, we'd be set.

That hasn't happened.

Why hasn't that happened?

Dunno.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

32 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Trae’s offense is just too concentrated.  It’s like a mediocre juice lol.  Only two small plots below the FT line where he shoots above league average, no corner threes for the opposition to defend.  They know Trae doesn’t like to even dribble outside the top of the arc, wings, or the middle of the floor, let alone shoot or pass (Murray and CP3 for comparison).  He doesn’t trust himself or his teammates in those areas, as he shouldn’t as he hasn’t been thoroughly trained to be a full-floor operator.:

 

You're obviously are not a fan of analytics, if you think there's an issue with Trae's shot plot.  The amount of 3s that he makes, combine with the amount of times he gets into the paint and scores, makes his plot far more valuable than what you're giving him credit for.

He's a point guard, so he's going to work the middle of the floor the vast majority of the time.  And here are those shooting percentages that you're trying to call "mediocre" by range

• At rim - 62% FG
• 3- 10 ft - 45%
• 10 - 16 fg - 44%
• 16ft - 3pt line - 51%
• 3 pt - 38%

Trae is literally scoring at all 3 levels, plus getting to the FT line ( when the refs make the proper call ).  And he doesn't have a spot on the floor in which he's below league average, which is hella rare for a PG.

You're placing some sort of weird value on corner 3s for a PG, when that's not the shot nor the area that most of them take their 3s from.  This is especially true if they're not playing with another secondary ball handler, or running an offensive system that puts him in those spots.  His shot plot clearly shows that he's becoming a guy who is becoming lethal at all areas of the court.

Hunter, Huerter, and Bogi should be the ones feasting off of corner 3s, because in a pick and roll or horns setup, those are the guys who are going to see themselves getting wide open looks from the corners.  It's not going to be Trae.  

As JayBird pointed out last night, those guys were missing wide open looks from up top and from the corners.  Trae can't make them make the shot when he finds them wide open.

The biggest problem with this team, and some in the fan base, is that you guys don't want to admit that when Trae is scoring the basketball, the Hawks are a better basketball team, than when everybody is "eating", and Trae is one of the "others".  Trae's scoring sets the tempo, and has the ability to create even more wide open opportunities for others.  This is why most teams concentrate on getting the ball out of his hands, to force his teammates to make shots and passing decisions.

[Hawkmoor]

https://mabsidam.com/2021/02/10/can-you-win-a-championship-with-trae-young-as-your-1/

Trae Young is a throw back volume shooter. Young shoots sub 45% from the field but plays with the belief that his teams best chance at winning is if he can find his rhythm and shoot them to victory, it’s reminiscent of AI in Philly in the early 2000’s. It must be noted however that this style of basketball is very wishy washy when it comes to team results. On one side is Kobe Bryant who led his team to back to back championships being a volume scorer while on the other side are good stats bad team guys like Bradley Beal or Young himself. It’s already worrying that Trae Young is one of the leading faces of the NBA’s current “dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot….” wave but it’s even more concerning when you realize Young is a small guard and this style of basketball is hardest on them as they don’t have the necessary body(well unless you’re AI) to carry the weight of an entire offense.

Another reliable scoring option will also help Young not go into hero-ball mode when a game seems to be escaping the Hawks. Defensively he’ll never be anything higher than average but he is still enough of an offensive threat that you can live with what he gives you on that end.

So can you win a championship with Trae Young as your best player? In my opinion yes but it’s a narrow road that requires another elite scoring option and a willingness from Trae Young to take a step back as a scorer and focus in as a playmaker and off ball threat.

The Atlanta Hawks had Luka Doncic in their hands and traded him for someone they felt better suited the city and their target market. The Hawks front office are happy with Trae Young’s impact off the court as he is an easily relatable player and thus a marketable star player with an aesthetically appealing finesse game. It was the right marketing/brand choice for a team in “that” city to trade for him but it will all be useless if they don’t make the necessary on court moves to see their Franchise Player thrive and win.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, Hawkmoor said:

https://mabsidam.com/2021/02/10/can-you-win-a-championship-with-trae-young-as-your-1/

Trae Young is a throw back volume shooter. Young shoots sub 45% from the field but plays with the belief that his teams best chance at winning is if he can find his rhythm and shoot them to victory, it’s reminiscent of AI in Philly in the early 2000’s. It must be noted however that this style of basketball is very wishy washy when it comes to team results. On one side is Kobe Bryant who led his team to back to back championships being a volume scorer while on the other side are good stats bad team guys like Bradley Beal or Young himself. It’s already worrying that Trae Young is one of the leading faces of the NBA’s current “dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot….” wave but it’s even more concerning when you realize Young is a small guard and this style of basketball is hardest on them as they don’t have the necessary body(well unless you’re AI) to carry the weight of an entire offense.

Another reliable scoring option will also help Young not go into hero-ball mode when a game seems to be escaping the Hawks. Defensively he’ll never be anything higher than average but he is still enough of an offensive threat that you can live with what he gives you on that end.

So can you win a championship with Trae Young as your best player? In my opinion yes but it’s a narrow road that requires another elite scoring option and a willingness from Trae Young to take a step back as a scorer and focus in as a playmaker and off ball threat.

The Atlanta Hawks had Luka Doncic in their hands and traded him for someone they felt better suited the city and their target market. The Hawks front office are happy with Trae Young’s impact off the court as he is an easily relatable player and thus a marketable star player with an aesthetically appealing finesse game. It was the right marketing/brand choice for a team in “that” city to trade for him but it will all be useless if they don’t make the necessary on court moves to see their Franchise Player thrive and win.

 

 

And the facts are this sir.

When Trae is scoring the basketball 30+ ppg . . . the Hawks are 14 - 7 . . . ( .667 winning percentage ) . . . That would put us as a 55 win pace in a season.

When he scores less than 30 points, the Hawks are 10 - 19.

Translation:  The Hawks are a much better team when Trae is aggressive offensively, and trying to play like he's the all-time greatest PG that ever did it.  And until that 2nd piece is alongside Trae, that is our best shot at winning.

 

All of that scoring and hero ball that people talk about . . . are a NECESSITY for this team to win in its current state.  We have not shown the ability to lock people down.  We have shown the ability for certain people to really play elite defense when it counted ( namely Okongwu ).  But the one thing that we can do, is either have Trae dominate the game and see if he can keep offensive pressure on the opponent, or see if his passing gets our shooters wide open looks that they knock down at a high rate.

Outside of Trae, we have maybe 2 players on this team that would be a starter on a higher level playoff team. So when it comes to the Hawks, it is what it is.

[marco102]

I normally try to see positives, but this team is what  it is a playin team this season.

Just disappointing and I will be back for more Sunday.

I can accept a loss, but that effort was trash from the starters.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And until Luka does something in the playoffs, like win a series, it's always going to be Trae > Luka . . because I know at least Trae can get it done outside of the regular season.  Because one thing about it . . Luka can't stop anybody on defense either.  And he's much more of a "hero ball" player than Trae.

So tell Luka to win something first.

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Trae’s putridity on defense is obvious: it takes that boy 84 games to post a full defensive win share.  The easiest team score in the NBA is a transition basket off his turnover.  But it’s surprising you think so much of his offensive impact when most of his peers obviously do not.  At a 35% usage you get so many diminished returns on lil homie.  I’ve always advocated for a 28% cap but that’s never gonna happen.  His assist to turn and three point shooting are good, not great.  His offensive metrics are always propped up by his outstanding FT attempts and percentage.  His midrange boon has been great for himself and the team I like how he finds those attempts.
 

But spamming long threes, PNR, and floaters all concentrated in the middle of the floor at his touch rate just creates a malaise over the team offense, evidenced by the higher team assist numbers and better on/off team offensive rating for Delon, who’s net rating is still holding steady at +8 over Trae’s.  I knew it would be better and I’d never seen Delon play before he got here but damn 8 points better for this long a stretch is alarming even to me.
 

Traes 2 pointers are assisted at a far lower rate than Demar freaking Derozan (and his 3s)  But can Trae hit contested shots from every possible spot inside the arc (and even behind the glass)?  No.  There are just too many areas he doesn’t operate in and too many areas where he isn’t an option as a playmaking recipient to give the offense the multiplicity you need from a heliocentric player.  Kevin and Bogi are average level playmakers: their abilities rise or fall with the actions going on off ball, it helps to have 4 options instead of 3.  When stating how bad a defender he is it goes hand in hand with how useless he is off ball.  That’s just a clear losing combination at his minutes and usage, see Hawks’ overall record since he’s been here.
 

If your “best” player can’t cut, screen, and be a plus defender you just playing checkers versus chess.  You know how much energy Jokic has to expend to cut to the basket as hard and fast as he does (where the Nuggets score at least a point every time)?  He does it about 5 times a game, let alone the dozen hard screens he sets.  How many useful cuts and screens from Trae in a week?  I’ll be generous and give him 4.
 

The highest impact leaders currently are all cut from the same cloth (Jokic, Butler, Giannis, CP3, Draymond)  and it’s simple. They enjoy role player tasks but have the elite feel to take over when need be (outside of Draymond)  Trae thinks getting hot from 30 feet excuses him from the brass tacks of the game sadly.

At the end of the day, not knocking him.  I would’ve thought all this obvious to Schlenk since Trae is the exact same guy he’s been since high school and has been groomed to play a style that looks team oriented to younger people but piss poor to someone who grew up watching a Stockton as you stated earlier about the generational divide between Trae viewers.

[Deleted personal comment] truth is 30 wins is Marbury in his era and prime status. He was more of a swing player good for 25 or 30 depending on personnel but Trae seems like he's good for 30 wins regardless. You can't win big with him as your best player. Even his best season were seasons he spammed the 1/4 PnR as a rookie and his 3rd where he spammed the 1/5 PnR when Nate got hired. Of course this shit isn't fool's proof and it got easily downloaded. 

Trae's game is cookie cutter. It's like a little kid playing 2k. You know CP3 could spam Ayton if he wanted but he doesn't because he understands how the game works and how defenses adjust. Trae just spams shit. It's so easy to download, its obvious why our 4th quarter stats in year 2 and year 4 are so f***ing awful.

Like Marbury, Trae will fall out of favor soon. His only redeeming factor is truly his playoffs level and his occasional games where he seems locked in on defense. He's way too much Marbury for me. I am going to start selling my Trae stock. It's looking like Smoove stock. I see the end near and he's only in year 4. 

Trae is not Iverson or even close. Iverson was good for 45 wins in his prime. AI was more like Nique. Where he's a star but likely isn't and never has been a true superstar because of his lack of defensive versatility. 

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And until Luka does something in the playoffs, like win a series, it's always going to be Trae > Luka . . because I know at least Trae can get it done outside of the regular season.  Because one thing about it . . Luka can't stop anybody on defense either.  And he's much more of a "hero ball" player than Trae.

So tell Luka to win something first.

No one believes this but Hawk and Trae fans. As far as most NBA fans are concerned, its Luka>>>Trae and it's not close. That's like saying J. O'Neal>>>KG. That literally was said by no one outside of bias Indy fans

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

And the facts are this sir.

When Trae is scoring the basketball 30+ ppg . . . the Hawks are 14 - 7 . . . ( .667 winning percentage ) . . . That would put us as a 55 win pace in a season.

When he scores less than 30 points, the Hawks are 10 - 19.

Translation:  The Hawks are a much better team when Trae is aggressive offensively, and trying to play like he's the all-time greatest PG that ever did it.  And until that 2nd piece is alongside Trae, that is our best shot at winning.

 

All of that scoring and hero ball that people talk about . . . are a NECESSITY for this team to win in its current state.  We have not shown the ability to lock people down.  We have shown the ability for certain people to really play elite defense when it counted ( namely Okongwu ).  But the one thing that we can do, is either have Trae dominate the game and see if he can keep offensive pressure on the opponent, or see if his passing gets our shooters wide open looks that they knock down at a high rate.

Outside of Trae, we have maybe 2 players on this team that would be a starter on a higher level playoff team. So when it comes to the Hawks, it is what it is.

[Deleted personal comment]

You literally are saying what we are all saying but from a sunny side up perspective. 

[bleachkit]

Dre has been a big disappointment this year. 12.9 PPG and a 10.56 PER. That's barely above replacement level. 

[JayBirdHawk]

I'm saying this for the 97th time this season - until one of the 'wangs' are CONSISTENT enough night in and night out and can step into a role where they can lift the team when Trae is struggling on offense (like Huerter did in the G7 vs Philly) - Hawks will not take the next step.