Official Game Thread: Spurs at Hawks

[Dynamo]

The Hawks need to find an identity.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

The name calling and criticism of other posters....come on guys.  You all know better.  We all get frustrated when the Hawks play like garbage.  Don't take it out on one another.  Let's do better.

 

Also, that's what the DMs are for.

If people have personal attack comments that they want to direct toward someone, they should do it there.

The topic should be about basketball, not other posters.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

He had one magical month of play last year but the advanced metrics reflect how mediocre most of his time in Atlanta has been from a measurables perspective.  While I'd like to see him be more effective on the boards, it is his offense that is his main limitation.  Unfortunately, he has been less than average there.  

This year he is 15th on the team in TS%, 17th on the team in OWS, and 17th on the team in OBPM.  VORP doesn't break out offense and defense but he is 24th on the team there, dead last.  We need more from him.

The fan base talks like his defensive impact is on the level of Okongwu's.  We all can see Okongwu's impact from a defensive FG% standpoint, and from a hustle stat and rebounding standpoint.  We're not getting that at all from De'Andre.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The fan base talks like his defensive impact is on the level of Okongwu's.  We all can see Okongwu's impact from a defensive FG% standpoint, and from a hustle stat and rebounding standpoint.  We're not getting that at all from De'Andre.

Is there any fan that thinks Hunter defense is as good as Okongwu? I haven't seen one of those posters in ages. I think most have been disappointed in Hunter this year. 

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Iverson was good for 45 wins +, when he had elite wing defenders, and an All-NBA defensive center playing with him.  

5 of the 6 winning seasons he had in Philly, came when AI had Larry Brown and a top 5 defense.

So you say we can replace Hunter and Hureter with non shooters like Lynch and Snow and win in this league? You don't give Iverson in his era enough credit. He was one of the best in the NBA at the time for a reason. You had to double team him even if you knew he was the offense, he was good enough to win 45 games by himself on offense and his defense was a net neutral. No one was better at turning mistakes into points like Iverson.

Iverson was one of the best cutters in the NBA off the ball. So much credit Iverson don't get from some fans in this generation. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

Defensive breakdown after Defensive breakdown.  We have really sucked in transition defense in particular and guys are communicating effectively at all. 

Videos and explanations included:

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

So you say we can replace Hunter and Hureter with non shooters like Lynch and Snow and win in this league? You don't give Iverson in his era enough credit. He was one of the best in the NBA at the time for a reason. You had to double team him even if you knew he was the offense, he was good enough to win 45 games by himself on offense and his defense was a net neutral. No one was better at turning mistakes into points like Iverson.

Iverson was one of the best cutters in the NBA off the ball. So much credit Iverson don't get from some fans in this generation. 

 

I'm a huge Iverson fan, and gave him a ton of credit for what he had to work with.  But let's look at those squads when Philly was decent

Aaron McKie was what we all want De'Andre Hunter to be now.  A tough, borderline lockdown defender, that can also score the basketball if need be.  He even won 6th man of the year once.  Eric Snow was solid defensively, and could run the point at a borderline high level, while Iverson concentrated on scoring the basketball.  Dikembe's addition put them in NBA Finals contention. His impact is undeniable.  And role players like Tyrone HIll, Raja Bell and even guys like Derrick Coleman and Keith Van Horn knew their roles and played them well.

Even in Denver, Iverson had a young Carmelo Anthony who was rapidly growing into a star level player.  Andre Miller was an improved version of Eric Snow. Marcus Camby was still an effective center. And he had Kenyon Martin and a young JR Smith.

Both of those squads were head and shoulders what we have here now.  If Trae had that type of help on a nightly basis, we would not be in the spot we're in right now.  Imagine Trae with a shot maker and creator like a young Carmelo Anthony or a PG like an Andre Miller, who can take the ball out of his hands and let him play off the ball.  We don't have that kind of versatility on this team right now.

Having said all of that, to Sturt's point, we are 9 - 4 since we've gotten everyone back, despite losing 3 of our last 4.  So as long as we can eliminate games like we had last night, the trend is that we're going to be playing above our seeding, once we get into the playoffs.

[terrell]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

CP3 has one inch on Trae wingspan wise and Trae has two inches on CP3 standing reach wise. 

You said Trae is a D- defender. I disagree, he's such a bad defender, he can't even get rated because he makes other worse on that end. 

Well I wanted to give him an F but I was trying to be nice.. lol

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[terrell]

9 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I've said since Trae's rookie year that the players don't particularly care for him. Especially the vet players. 

Or the Coaches...

[sturt]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I got some time this morning.  Let's do some film breakdown because I missed most of the 1st quarter

 

Vassell knocks short midrange jumper - video is not shown, for some strange reason.  The play by play says that Huerter blocked his shot, but he got it back and shot it again and made it.

McDermott makes a 27ft 3 . . Murray to Poeltl to Johnson coming around from the left corner to the top to receive the ball. Pass back to McDermott up top being guarded by Huerter. Johnson screens Huerter.  Collins, who was guarding Johnson, gave McDermott a little too much room, and he knocks down the 3.

Poeltl makes 4 foot hook shot - Murray drives and attacks Trae down the right side and drives to the basket.  Capela provides help under the rim. Murray then flips the ball back to Poeltl. Capela contests the shot, but Poeltl makes the hook

McDermott makes corner 3 - After a Hunter midrange miss, Johnson for the Spurs get the rebound and push it up the court to Vassell.  All Hawks are back, but 3 of them arSe on the left side of the court, and Huerter opts to pick up the trailing Johnson, instead of stopping Vassell with the ball.  Hunter, who was on McDermott, has to now come up to address Vassell coming up court with the ball. But he leaves McDermott open in the corner for 3 . . splash.

Vassell knocks down short midrange jumper - Poeltl passes the ball to Vassell, who has Trae guarding him on the left wing. Poeltl comes over to set the pick, but Vassell drives left and pulls up for the jumper.  Good contest by Trae as he shoots it, but Vassell knocks it down.

Murray gets a layup - Capela tries to secure an offensive rebound, but is about to fall out of bounds. He tries to throw it to Huerter, but the Spurs' Murray steals it, and they are off and running on a 4 - 2 fast break. Murray goes right at Trae, who offers little resistance to stop his drive.  Hunter contests the layup at the rim, but Murray lays it in easily.

Johnson makes short jumper - Spurs are inbounding the ball on the baseline. Johnson is at the top of the key, guarded by Collins. Trae is on Vassell. Huerter is on McDermott.  Hunter is guarding the ball on the baseline.  McDermott sets a screen for Johnson, who is running down to get the ball.  Collins does a spin move to avoid the pick, but spins right into Poeltl who prevents him from getting to Johnson.  Huerter lets Johnson run past him like he's invisible.  Trae looks back as Johnson has ran behind him.  And Capela is under the rim. 

Johnson is now wide open for the short jumper. Like no one within 8 feet of him open.  Great inbounds play, but the Hawks were completely lost on that one.  To me, either Huerter has to switch, or Hunter needs to come off the baseline and play the open space.  That play was way too easy.

Murray corner 3 - McDermott has the ball on the left side being guarded by Huerter. He passes it to Murray, being guarded by Hunter.  Murray simply just rises up and knocks down the 3 in De'Andre's face.

Johnson hits 25ft 3 - I think Trae and Collins actually see what is about to happen here. Trae picking up Murray as he's dribbling the ball past half court up the right side. Johnson, who has been guarded by Collins most of the game, is trailing the play on the left side. Trae points in Johnson's direction, because he's running with no one guarding him. This is Collins' man, but Collins has his focus on McDermott who is in the left corner.  Collins has also pointed to Johnson for the same reason.  Huerter has picked up Vassell in the right corner.  So the culprit here is Hunter.

Hunter is right behind Trae on this play, and seems to be locked in on Murray too, but he is not aggressively stepping up to guard him.  In fact, he seems to push Trae in front of him to take Murray, while Hunter is in some sort of "soft zone" behind Trae?  Murray casually passes the ball to the wide open Johnson jogging up the left side.  Trae rotates over to somewhat contest the shot, but Johnson knocks down the 3.  After the made 3, Trae stands there with his hands like . . WTF are we doing?

McDermott makes 24ft 3 - All 5 Hawks were back on defense when the ball has been advanced in the frontcourt to Johnson, who is in the left corner being guarded by Huerter. Once again though, this is "Collins" man.  Huerter did right by picking up Johnson, because Collins wasn't in position to pick up Johnson. 

As Johnson receives the ball, Huerter points to McDermott who is trailing the play and is being guarded by no one.  Collins, at this time, has 2 feet in the paint, when Johnson passes the ball out to McDermott.  Collins contests the shot, but he's late getting there.  Easy catch and shoot 3 for Dougie.  Hawks are now down 27 - 15, and have given up their 3rd 3 in a row and 5th of the quarter.

Poeltl short 11ft push shot - Murray, who is being guarded by Hunter on the right side, passes it to Poeltl at the FT line. He immediately gets the ball and shoots some sort of shotput jumper that goes in.  Capela was there, but I think even he was caught off guard by that type of shot.

Vassell 25ft 3 - After K-Von's fingerroll was blocked by Poeltl, big Jake grabs the ball and starts the fastbreak himself. Spurs are now on a 5 on 3 fastbreak with the ball now in Murray's hands, with Trae, Collins, and Hunter back on defense.  When you pause the video right when Murray passes it, Trae is literally in the Bermuda Triangle.  He has Murray pushing the ball at him. He has McDermott spotted up in the corner.  And he has Vassell trailing the play right in front of him. 

Trae decides to stay in between all 3 guys, which might prevent the corner 3 by McDermott, but does little to stop the Murray drive or the incoming 3 ball by Vassell.  Easy play for Murray to shovel the ball to Vassell, who knocks down the 3.

Murray 25 ft 3 - Just poor communication and awareness by Trae, Hunter and Collins here.  They have to decide who they want to pick up and know the personnel out on the floor.  Trae is the one that is seeing two people possibly open. He has one in the corner behind him and he has Murray in front of him, which was his initial focus.  Trae literally does a spin and decides to shade off of Murray and onto McDermott in the corner. 

Collins has sagged back into the paint, now playing the center role.  Hunter is up top, guarding 6-11 Zach Collins, who has the ball.  Why?  I don't know.  When Zach throws the ball to a wide open Murray, it's Collins that jumps out to contest the shot. But Murray has way too much room to get that shot off.  Another 3 by the Spurs, their 5th one in their last 6 possessions, and the Spurs now lead by 16.

Johnson 24ft pointer - The bench mob is now in.  Joshua Primo gets the ball on the left side, drives toward the FT line, and has for some reason, 4 Hawks around him.  Primo throws the ball to Johnson, who was left open by Delon shading toward the FT line.  Bogi is the closest man to Johnon, but he has Lonnie Walker in front of him in the right corner.  Delon tries to recover, does a soft contest a Johnson, but it makes no difference.  Another 3 by the Spurs, their 8th of the quarter, and they now have a whopping 41 points.

Primo layup - Huerer, with the shot clock running down, fires up a 3 and misses. Johnson grabs the rebound and immediately pushes it ahead to Primo. With just seconds left in the quarter, Primo drives straight to the basket and makes a tough layup over Bogi, who fouls him.

 

And that's how you give up 43 points in a quarter.

 

Have to give it up for North...

On a weekend when most of us would be 100% consumed with our championship level team's success and potential first Super Bowl victory...

He's here. Instead.

 

[terrell]

9 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

How many points given up last night was the result of Trae's bad defense? Not speculation but actual points given up?

Like you can look at a Spurs possession and say Trae was the guy they attacked or that's the guy Trae lost on that possession? 

You're gonna die on the Trae  Young hill regardless of what anybody comes up with so....................... lol

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

I'm a huge Iverson fan, and gave him a ton of credit for what he had to work with.  But let's look at those squads when Philly was decent

Aaron McKie was what we all want De'Andre Hunter to be now.  A tough, borderline lockdown defender, that can also score the basketball if need be.  He even won 6th man of the year once.  Eric Snow was solid defensively, and could run the point at a borderline high level, while Iverson concentrated on scoring the basketball.  Dikembe's addition put them in NBA Finals contention. His impact is undeniable.  And role players like Tyrone HIll, Raja Bell and even guys like Derrick Coleman and Keith Van Horn knew their roles and played them well.

Even in Denver, Iverson had a young Carmelo Anthony who was rapidly growing into a star level player.  Andre Miller was an improved version of Eric Snow. Marcus Camby was still an effective center. And he had Kenyon Martin and a young JR Smith.

Both of those squads were head and shoulders what we have here now.  If Trae had that type of help on a nightly basis, we would not be in the spot we're in right now.  Imagine Trae with a shot maker and creator like a young Carmelo Anthony or a PG like an Andre Miller, who can take the ball out of his hands and let him play off the ball.  We don't have that kind of versatility on this team right now.

Having said all of that, to Sturt's point, we are 9 - 4 since we've gotten everyone back, despite losing 3 of our last 4.  So as long as we can eliminate games like we had last night, the trend is that we're going to be playing above our seeding, once we get into the playoffs.

Doesn't sound like you did watch them to me.

Dre is way more capable offensively than Lynch. He just needs a lot more quality touches which will never come from Trae and his style of play, Lynch barely needed any.

McKie didn't start. He was the 6th man and he wasn't that great defensively. Lynch and Snow was. McKie was offensively versatile, he just lacked athletic ability. The player that comes to mind for me with McKie is a less athletic but more focused Dinwiddle.

Snow was an excellent defender. In fact, I'll say he's a lot like our backup PG Delon Wright. Delon is better offensively but defensively, they are equals.

Deke was excellent that season. He's always been worth 45 wins like Horford. Truly game changing piece especially as he was in his last prime season that year. 

They had two 45 win guys and a bunch of 20 win or less guys. Not really a winning formula but it was a weak eastern conference. 

Iverson was no longer in his prime in Denver, his value was 30 wins by that time which is equal to Trae's current value. Once he went to DET, he became valueless. 

Trae just ain't a winning player. Its amazing that he's a 50 win offensive guy but -20 on defense is worse than -15 from Jimmer, Enes Freedom, today's Whiteside, Kapono, and washed Hawks Parsons and Crabbe. He's in a league of his own on defense even thought he is rare offensively. The main reason is, you can't sub him on D and play him on offense only. 

You can get nothing but defensive wings but Trae needs to play around talent on offense. You can't Harden it and start guys making the min like McLemore and Gerald Green and still win games in this league. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 minutes ago, terrell said:

Or the Coaches...

The coaches have much more respect for Trae, because they're doing everything in their power to stop him.

I think Trae may have turned some of the players off, with the nutmegs.  We haven't seen a lot of that this year, but in his previous 3 years, he'd look to do it about once every 5 games.

[terrell]

3 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

https://mabsidam.com/2021/02/10/can-you-win-a-championship-with-trae-young-as-your-1/

Trae Young is a throw back volume shooter. Young shoots sub 45% from the field but plays with the belief that his teams best chance at winning is if he can find his rhythm and shoot them to victory, it’s reminiscent of AI in Philly in the early 2000’s. It must be noted however that this style of basketball is very wishy washy when it comes to team results. On one side is Kobe Bryant who led his team to back to back championships being a volume scorer while on the other side are good stats bad team guys like Bradley Beal or Young himself. It’s already worrying that Trae Young is one of the leading faces of the NBA’s current “dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot….” wave but it’s even more concerning when you realize Young is a small guard and this style of basketball is hardest on them as they don’t have the necessary body(well unless you’re AI) to carry the weight of an entire offense.

Another reliable scoring option will also help Young not go into hero-ball mode when a game seems to be escaping the Hawks. Defensively he’ll never be anything higher than average but he is still enough of an offensive threat that you can live with what he gives you on that end.

So can you win a championship with Trae Young as your best player? In my opinion yes but it’s a narrow road that requires another elite scoring option and a willingness from Trae Young to take a step back as a scorer and focus in as a playmaker and off ball threat.

The Atlanta Hawks had Luka Doncic in their hands and traded him for someone they felt better suited the city and their target market. The Hawks front office are happy with Trae Young’s impact off the court as he is an easily relatable player and thus a marketable star player with an aesthetically appealing finesse game. It was the right marketing/brand choice for a team in “that” city to trade for him but it will all be useless if they don’t make the necessary on court moves to see their Franchise Player thrive and win.

 

Better suited for the city? lol.. WTF does that even mean? Just because he's biracial?

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[terrell]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

And the facts are this sir.

When Trae is scoring the basketball 30+ ppg . . . the Hawks are 14 - 7 . . . ( .667 winning percentage ) . . . That would put us as a 55 win pace in a season.

When he scores less than 30 points, the Hawks are 10 - 19.

Translation:  The Hawks are a much better team when Trae is aggressive offensively, and trying to play like he's the all-time greatest PG that ever did it.  And until that 2nd piece is alongside Trae, that is our best shot at winning.

 

All of that scoring and hero ball that people talk about . . . are a NECESSITY for this team to win in its current state.  We have not shown the ability to lock people down.  We have shown the ability for certain people to really play elite defense when it counted ( namely Okongwu ).  But the one thing that we can do, is either have Trae dominate the game and see if he can keep offensive pressure on the opponent, or see if his passing gets our shooters wide open looks that they knock down at a high rate.

Outside of Trae, we have maybe 2 players on this team that would be a starter on a higher level playoff team. So when it comes to the Hawks, it is what it is.

Which means our GM sucks at his job..

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The coaches have much more respect for Trae, because they're doing everything in their power to stop him.

I think Trae may have turned some of the players off, with the nutmegs.  We haven't seen a lot of that this year, but in his previous 3 years, he'd look to do it about once every 5 games.

Most coaches find him to be uncoachable.

[terrell]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And until Luka does something in the playoffs, like win a series, it's always going to be Trae > Luka . . because I know at least Trae can get it done outside of the regular season.  Because one thing about it . . Luka can't stop anybody on defense either.  And he's much more of a "hero ball" player than Trae.

So tell Luka to win something first.

Stop it...You lose all credibilty saying Trae > Luka as an all around basketball player.... I'm sorry..Only some delusional Hawks fans think that..

[Spud2nique]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

McKie didn't start. He was the 6th man and he wasn't that great defensively.

Wrong answer. 

 

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae just ain't a winning player.

F outta here with that he went to the ECF in his first playoff appearance I’m not buying this agenda crap  

[terrell]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Dre has been a big disappointment this year. 12.9 PPG and a 10.56 PER. That's barely above replacement level. 

Maybe hes the one that needs to be benched? We played our best ball without him last season..Ive been a Dre fan but hes looking like a bust right now as the #4 pick in the entire draft...Especially considering what we gave up for him.. Just damn.. Can we do a 2019 draft re-do? . 2 top 10 picks smh

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I think Trae may have turned some of the players off, with the nutmegs.  We haven't seen a lot of that this year, but in his previous 3 years, he'd look to do it about once every 5 games.

Deep down inside I’m old school and I didn’t love it, but he is ours and it was fun. I see how others don’t like it but at the same time, F&ckem what is Lebron mister perfect? 

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

I'm sorry..Only some delusional Hawks fans think that..

@marco102 so Terrell isn’t Supes? Riiiiiight? Your both Hawks fans even if you are one and the same.