Official Game Thread: Spurs at Hawks

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Dre has been a big disappointment this year. 12.9 PPG and a 10.56 PER. That's barely above replacement level. 

Dre like Klay doesn't play a PER friendly game and Klay is much better than Dre at this stage of his career.

[marco102]

27 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No one believes this but Hawk and Trae fans. As far as most NBA fans are concerned, its Luka>>>Trae and it's not close. That's like saying J. O'Neal>>>KG. That literally was said by no one outside of bias Indy fans

You're not a Hawks fan now?  That's breaking news.

[bleachkit]

I dont know what moves we can make in the off season. But this aint it. 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

You're not a Hawks fan now?  That's breaking news.

If I am posting here, watching all of the games, I am obviously a fan. I am just not delusional. I do not blindly think our players>>>> others just because they don Hawk unis.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

If I am posting here, watching all of the games, I am obviously a fan. I am just not delusional. I do not blindly think our players>>>> others just because they don Hawk unis.

Generally you are objective. But you did do that with Cam Reddish, to be fair. 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Generally you are objective. But you did do that with Cam Reddish, to be fair. 

I wasn't objective with Cam, I was hard on him, it was his potential I couldn't overlook. He wasn't close to it and he showed flashes and big wings take time. So I had hope. I still have hope with Okongwu. I don't have hope with the others outside of the rooks, they can get better but generally they are what they are. You rarely see a DeRozan like jump from guys as they age. Players are more likely to regress. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

Any potential difference makers in the draft in the mid teens?

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I dont know what moves we can make in the off season. But this aint it. 

Get Ayton - worth only 35 wins but he's a ceiling raiser like Trae. 

Get Siakam - Worth 40 wins, high end 2nd option. 

Get rid of JC (35) and Capela (30). Atlanta becomes a legit 45-48 win team. Right now, this is a 35-38 win team. 

Trae and Ayton raise their ceilings in the playoffs and they become a legit contender level team. 

 

[Diesel]

Read most of the comments, will give my take.

First Last Night. 

Our achilles heel is teams that get us into a transition game and in the half court play inside out.   San Antonio was all about that last night. 

1.  The Transition game.   I noticed this when we played Phoenix. I call it next play.  Regardless of what happened, Phoenix was on to the next play and caught our defense sleeping.   San Antonio did that perfectly last night.   They went to the next play.   Part of the problem is our defensive scheming.   We're too busy trying to cover for Trae on the defensive matchups that our men don't know where to go and in transition, that time wasted is a killer.   But it's not just covering for Trae it's just being unfamiliar with role.   For instance, last night, I think we started the middle of the 3rd qter with Trae, Delon, Huerter, Bogi, and Gallo....  In this lineup, our guys didn't know where to be on offense and on defense.    The checkoffs on defense were terrible.   On offense, I actually saw Huerter and Delon standing in the same spot. 

The issue with Delon is that we have him playing several positions right now.   He plays primarily as a 2 with the 2nd Unit.  He plays primarily as a 2 with the 1st Unit.. but then sometimes, we play him as a 1 because Lou can't play or Trae goes out.   The problem is that he doesn't shoot enough to be a 2 and he doesn't run the offense enough to be a 1 (especially with Trae on the floor).  He's by far our best on ball defender. 

2.  The Half court Defense.  I hate a 2-3 Zone.   Most HS teams know how to break it.  I don't understand why Nate is using it.   We see a lot of this:

The 1-3-1 set.    It's a 2-3 Zone killer at this level because most 2s and 3s can nail the corner three... and it's activated so easily.  When you watch, the 4 goes to the Foul line.  The 1 may make an entry pass.  As the 5 cuts through the backside, the offside 2 or the 3 goes to the corner.  The 4 is  going to get Clint's attention.   The 5 crashing inside is going to carry the 3 or the 4 with him and the 2 or the 3 on their team is going to the corner and will be wide open.  Our problem with read is that either our 2 or 1 (Huerter or Trae) is either ball watching or doubling down on the 4  instead of going with the 2 or 3 because we're in this zone.   Corner threes all day... that's why you see a lot of these wide open corner threes and Hunter or JC trying to close out on the shooter but normally too late. 

We got to get out of this 2-3 zone and if you want to play some type of zone, play a matchup zone.  That way, the 1 or the 2 will stay with the corner shooters.  It leaves the 1 at the top of the key in worse case but I will live with that shot.  In best case, the corner shooter will be picked up by the JC or Hunter and the 1 or 2 can rotate back up. 

 Personnel. 

Trae - Below average defender. 

Huerter.   I don't know if he knows what to do on defense.   He is the main ball watcher.  He also makes dumb fouls. 

JC .   Usually gets caught up in bad matchups.   Also makes dumb fouls. 

Clint.  Good defender.   He is usually drawn out of position covering for somebody else. 

Hunter.  Slippy hands...  I don't know.  He's an above average defender.. but he would be better in a man defense. 

 

The answer.    We need a new defense coordinator. 

 

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Any potential difference makers in the draft in the mid teens?

Teri Eason is the best fit for what we really need around Trae but he's a year away with that jumpshot. He can't dribble for shit in the half court but after year 4 of Trae, you know Trae gonna be doing most of ball handling anyway.

[NBASupes]

Since Travis came, he built this team in his own image. He has to adjust and build this team around Trae Young which ain't gonna be easy.

Edited February 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I got some time this morning.  Let's do some film breakdown because I missed most of the 1st quarter

 

Vassell knocks short midrange jumper - video is not shown, for some strange reason.  The play by play says that Huerter blocked his shot, but he got it back and shot it again and made it.

McDermott makes a 27ft 3 . . Murray to Poeltl to Johnson coming around from the left corner to the top to receive the ball. Pass back to McDermott up top being guarded by Huerter. Johnson screens Huerter.  Collins, who was guarding Johnson, gave McDermott a little too much room, and he knocks down the 3.

Poeltl makes 4 foot hook shot - Murray drives and attacks Trae down the right side and drives to the basket.  Capela provides help under the rim. Murray then flips the ball back to Poeltl. Capela contests the shot, but Poeltl makes the hook

McDermott makes corner 3 - After a Hunter midrange miss, Johnson for the Spurs get the rebound and push it up the court to Vassell.  All Hawks are back, but 3 of them arSe on the left side of the court, and Huerter opts to pick up the trailing Johnson, instead of stopping Vassell with the ball.  Hunter, who was on McDermott, has to now come up to address Vassell coming up court with the ball. But he leaves McDermott open in the corner for 3 . . splash.

Vassell knocks down short midrange jumper - Poeltl passes the ball to Vassell, who has Trae guarding him on the left wing. Poeltl comes over to set the pick, but Vassell drives left and pulls up for the jumper.  Good contest by Trae as he shoots it, but Vassell knocks it down.

Murray gets a layup - Capela tries to secure an offensive rebound, but is about to fall out of bounds. He tries to throw it to Huerter, but the Spurs' Murray steals it, and they are off and running on a 4 - 2 fast break. Murray goes right at Trae, who offers little resistance to stop his drive.  Hunter contests the layup at the rim, but Murray lays it in easily.

Johnson makes short jumper - Spurs are inbounding the ball on the baseline. Johnson is at the top of the key, guarded by Collins. Trae is on Vassell. Huerter is on McDermott.  Hunter is guarding the ball on the baseline.  McDermott sets a screen for Johnson, who is running down to get the ball.  Collins does a spin move to avoid the pick, but spins right into Poeltl who prevents him from getting to Johnson.  Huerter lets Johnson run past him like he's invisible.  Trae looks back as Johnson has ran behind him.  And Capela is under the rim. 

Johnson is now wide open for the short jumper. Like no one within 8 feet of him open.  Great inbounds play, but the Hawks were completely lost on that one.  To me, either Huerter has to switch, or Hunter needs to come off the baseline and play the open space.  That play was way too easy.

Murray corner 3 - McDermott has the ball on the left side being guarded by Huerter. He passes it to Murray, being guarded by Hunter.  Murray simply just rises up and knocks down the 3 in De'Andre's face.

Johnson hits 25ft 3 - I think Trae and Collins actually see what is about to happen here. Trae picking up Murray as he's dribbling the ball past half court up the right side. Johnson, who has been guarded by Collins most of the game, is trailing the play on the left side. Trae points in Johnson's direction, because he's running with no one guarding him. This is Collins' man, but Collins has his focus on McDermott who is in the left corner.  Collins has also pointed to Johnson for the same reason.  Huerter has picked up Vassell in the right corner.  So the culprit here is Hunter.

Hunter is right behind Trae on this play, and seems to be locked in on Murray too, but he is not aggressively stepping up to guard him.  In fact, he seems to push Trae in front of him to take Murray, while Hunter is in some sort of "soft zone" behind Trae?  Murray casually passes the ball to the wide open Johnson jogging up the left side.  Trae rotates over to somewhat contest the shot, but Johnson knocks down the 3.  After the made 3, Trae stands there with his hands like . . WTF are we doing?

McDermott makes 24ft 3 - All 5 Hawks were back on defense when the ball has been advanced in the frontcourt to Johnson, who is in the left corner being guarded by Huerter. Once again though, this is "Collins" man.  Huerter did right by picking up Johnson, because Collins wasn't in position to pick up Johnson. 

As Johnson receives the ball, Huerter points to McDermott who is trailing the play and is being guarded by no one.  Collins, at this time, has 2 feet in the paint, when Johnson passes the ball out to McDermott.  Collins contests the shot, but he's late getting there.  Easy catch and shoot 3 for Dougie.  Hawks are now down 27 - 15, and have given up their 3rd 3 in a row and 5th of the quarter.

Poeltl short 11ft push shot - Murray, who is being guarded by Hunter on the right side, passes it to Poeltl at the FT line. He immediately gets the ball and shoots some sort of shotput jumper that goes in.  Capela was there, but I think even he was caught off guard by that type of shot.

Vassell 25ft 3 - After K-Von's fingerroll was blocked by Poeltl, big Jake grabs the ball and starts the fastbreak himself. Spurs are now on a 5 on 3 fastbreak with the ball now in Murray's hands, with Trae, Collins, and Hunter back on defense.  When you pause the video right when Murray passes it, Trae is literally in the Bermuda Triangle.  He has Murray pushing the ball at him. He has McDermott spotted up in the corner.  And he has Vassell trailing the play right in front of him. 

Trae decides to stay in between all 3 guys, which might prevent the corner 3 by McDermott, but does little to stop the Murray drive or the incoming 3 ball by Vassell.  Easy play for Murray to shovel the ball to Vassell, who knocks down the 3.

Murray 25 ft 3 - Just poor communication and awareness by Trae, Hunter and Collins here.  They have to decide who they want to pick up and know the personnel out on the floor.  Trae is the one that is seeing two people possibly open. He has one in the corner behind him and he has Murray in front of him, which was his initial focus.  Trae literally does a spin and decides to shade off of Murray and onto McDermott in the corner. 

Collins has sagged back into the paint, now playing the center role.  Hunter is up top, guarding 6-11 Zach Collins, who has the ball.  Why?  I don't know.  When Zach throws the ball to a wide open Murray, it's Collins that jumps out to contest the shot. But Murray has way too much room to get that shot off.  Another 3 by the Spurs, their 5th one in their last 6 possessions, and the Spurs now lead by 16.

Johnson 24ft pointer - The bench mob is now in.  Joshua Primo gets the ball on the left side, drives toward the FT line, and has for some reason, 4 Hawks around him.  Primo throws the ball to Johnson, who was left open by Delon shading toward the FT line.  Bogi is the closest man to Johnon, but he has Lonnie Walker in front of him in the right corner.  Delon tries to recover, does a soft contest a Johnson, but it makes no difference.  Another 3 by the Spurs, their 8th of the quarter, and they now have a whopping 41 points.

Primo layup - Huerer, with the shot clock running down, fires up a 3 and misses. Johnson grabs the rebound and immediately pushes it ahead to Primo. With just seconds left in the quarter, Primo drives straight to the basket and makes a tough layup over Bogi, who fouls him.

 

And that's how you give up 43 points in a quarter.

 

[AHF]

The name calling and criticism of other posters....come on guys.  You all know better.  We all get frustrated when the Hawks play like garbage.  Don't take it out on one another.  Let's do better.

[Gray Mule]

Sad, but true.  Hawks rely heavily on Trae Young to carry them.  When he has a bad night, like last night, the Atlanta Hawks have a very bad night.  Our starters lean on him.  Impossible is a terrible word.  I remember my sister, who was a third grade teacher, telling her class, "I can't" is not allowed here.

Without Trae having a good game, "I can't" becomes the watchword of our team.  Impossible to win when we are like this.  Remember, in the playoffs, when the ref's foot put him out.  Hawks were stopped.

When did we really know that our goose was cooked?  When their center, who had made one three point shot in his career, turned as the clock was running out and drained a shot from half court.  When you are having a bad game any way, this seals your doom.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

[Deleted personal comment] truth is 30 wins is Marbury in his era and prime status. He was more of a swing player good for 25 or 30 depending on personnel but Trae seems like he's good for 30 wins regardless. You can't win big with him as your best player. Even his best season were seasons he spammed the 1/4 PnR as a rookie and his 3rd where he spammed the 1/5 PnR when Nate got hired. Of course this shit isn't fool's proof and it got easily downloaded. 

Trae's game is cookie cutter. It's like a little kid playing 2k. You know CP3 could spam Ayton if he wanted but he doesn't because he understands how the game works and how defenses adjust. Trae just spams shit. It's so easy to download, its obvious why our 4th quarter stats in year 2 and year 4 are so f***ing awful.

Like Marbury, Trae will fall out of favor soon. His only redeeming factor is truly his playoffs level and his occasional games where he seems locked in on defense. He's way too much Marbury for me. I am going to start selling my Trae stock. It's looking like Smoove stock. I see the end near and he's only in year 4. 

Trae is not Iverson or even close. Iverson was good for 45 wins in his prime. AI was more like Nique. Where he's a star but likely isn't and never has been a true superstar because of his lack of defensive versatility. 

 

Iverson was good for 45 wins +, when he had elite wing defenders, and an All-NBA defensive center playing with him.  

5 of the 6 winning seasons he had in Philly, came when AI had Larry Brown and a top 5 defense.

[terrell]

9 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He earned it. His playoff performance was top 3 of all players ahead of guys like LeBron. Only KD and Giannis was higher. While guys like Horford have 45 win floors, what good is it when they can raise your ceiling which you need in the playoffs? 

I really don't like putting Trae in the same league with Nique, Horford, Deke, or even Blaylock. There is a significant gap between 40-45 win floors. If you gotta spam shit till it get downloaded to win. Your shit ain't that good. That's that Drummond shit. 

For as much shit as Iverson gets on this site, he was worth 50 wins in his prime which is the same as Nique. That's 20 more than Trae. Trae got nearly as many player votes as Darius Garland who hasn't been on the national stage yet. I mean, honestly, has Trae played better than him this year.

No he hasnt..

[terrell]

9 hours ago, NBASupes said:

CP3 has one inch on Trae wingspan wise and Trae has two inches on CP3 standing reach wise. 

You said Trae is a D- defender. I disagree, he's such a bad defender, he can't even get rated because he makes other worse on that end. 

CP3 has a 6'4 wingspan.. Trae is 6'2 WS. and again no comparison IQ wise..

Edited February 12, 2022 by terrell

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Dre has been a big disappointment this year. 12.9 PPG and a 10.56 PER. That's barely above replacement level. 

 

Finally someone is saying it.

He gets somewhat of a pass because he's been hurt.  But he's vastly overrated by the people who support him.

This is why I pointed out back in December that the weakest part of our team, is actually at the wings.  Our wings are average across the board.  Our PG is elite.  Collins is above average on most nights.  Capela has slipped, but with he and Okongwu at the center position, we're above average there.  It's the wing spot where we fall short.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm saying this for the 97th time this season - until one of the 'wangs' are CONSISTENT enough night in and night out and can step into a role where they can lift the team when Trae is struggling on offense (like Huerter did in the G7 vs Philly) - Hawks will not take the next step.

 

 

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Finally someone is saying it.

He gets somewhat of a pass because he's been hurt.  But he's vastly overrated by the people who support him.

This is why I pointed out back in December that the weakest part of our team, is actually at the wings.  Our wings are average across the board.  Our PG is elite.  Collins is above average on most nights.  Capela has slipped, but with he and Okongwu at the center position, we're above average there.  It's the wing spot where we fall short.

He had one magical month of play last year but the advanced metrics reflect how mediocre most of his time in Atlanta has been from a measurables perspective.  While I'd like to see him be more effective on the boards, it is his offense that is his main limitation.  Unfortunately, he has been less than average there.  

This year he is 15th on the team in TS%, 17th on the team in OWS, and 17th on the team in OBPM.  VORP doesn't break out offense and defense but he is 24th on the team there, dead last.  We need more from him.