Official Game Thread: Kings at Hawks

[Final_quest]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Hunter lack of passing skills is probably his biggest hindrance in my eyes as an overall hooper

What about low activity for rebounding, deflections, and steals?  Less than stellar handles and limited ability to drive to the rim and draw fouls.  He is not just a weak passer, but the exact opposite of a stat stuffer.  
It’s not just PER he grades low on nearly every advanced stat to the point that anyone in his draft class with a lower VORP is basically out of the league.  

[benhillboy]

8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

What about low activity for rebounding, deflections, and steals?  Less than stellar handles and limited ability to drive to the rim and draw fouls.  He is not just a weak passer, but the exact opposite of a stat stuffer.  
It’s not just PER he grades low on nearly every advanced stat to the point that anyone in his draft class with a lower VORP is basically out of the league.  

How you really feel lol.  
 

Can’t argue with any of it.  He’s been skating on his versatile size and body type and his college success longer than most could, especially with an extensive injury history.

Edited November 24, 2022 by benhillboy

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

What about low activity for rebounding, deflections, and steals?  Less than stellar handles and limited ability to drive to the rim and draw fouls.  He is not just a weak passer, but the exact opposite of a stat stuffer.  
It’s not just PER he grades low on nearly every advanced stat to the point that anyone in his draft class with a lower VORP is basically out of the league.  

He has been getting to the line lately and has improved his rebounding. 

All progress is not linear.

Edited November 24, 2022 by marco102

[marco102]

To add a little context. Over Hunter's last 5 games,  he is averaging 17.4 pts, 5.2 rebounds, and about 1 assist.  Shooting splits aren't that great overall, but he is attempting 7.4 free throws per game.

I know small sample size and all, but if he can maintain the 5 rebounds and maybe 5 free throw attempts per game I would be happy.

Edited November 24, 2022 by marco102

[Final_quest]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

To add a little context. Over his last 5 games,  he is averaging 17.4 pts, 5.2 rebounds, and about 1 assist.  Shooting splits aren't that great overall, but he is attempting 7.4 free throws per game.

I know small sample size and all, but if he can maintain the 5 rebounds and maybe 5 free throw attempts per game I would be happy.

I’m really encouraged by his play lately, but more making the point that I am pretty far from seeing him as our 2nd best player.  

DJM nearly averaged a triple double while leading the league in steals.  Capela is still able to be a top 5 rebounder.  Hunter will get 10 rebounds or 10 FTs once or twice a year.  

If someone asks why people are down on Hunter a bit, I’m just explaining why.

[Gray Mule]

9 hours ago, MarylandHawk said:

AJ and JJ played really well that first half. It is really nice to see them play impactful minutes. 

AJ & JJ.  JJ & AJ.  Hawk's one, two punch from our two rookies!  Learning on the go!  I agree.  It's nice to see good games from these two.  Both may have a bad game or two along the way (who doesn't?) but youth and enthusiasm will carry them far because of the talent that both have shown.

Just how young are these Hawks?  Justin Holiday is 33.  Bogie is 30.  This is our two old players.  Everyone else is under 30!  0017 is 21.  JJ is 20.  AJ is 19.  Very young Hawks!

Atlanta just stopped the hottest team from the west.  Somehow our defense got the job done while our offense really played well, especially in the 1st half.  Then, Hawks made their free throws in the second half as the Kings attempted to slow our scoring.

(Yes, JJ is still a rookie.  He played less than 300 minutes last year.)

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

What about low activity for rebounding, deflections, and steals?  Less than stellar handles and limited ability to drive to the rim and draw fouls.  He is not just a weak passer, but the exact opposite of a stat stuffer.  
It’s not just PER he grades low on nearly every advanced stat to the point that anyone in his draft class with a lower VORP is basically out of the league.  

No. I like the way he defends. The rebounding is all about positioning, he's usually on the perimeter but Barnes limes the post so what happened, he got a lot of rebounds. While getting deflections and steals are valuable, so is defensive discipline. Something Hunter does at an very high level.

Handles are only a problem when it's as bad as it was last year. He's able to get to the rack and finish or get to his pull up. I am fine with it. Not ideal but not a negative. I see what PB is saying. You guys are way more harsh on Hunter issues than Trae when Trae one actually hurts us as a team more but the love affair you guys have with offense is exceptionally loyal.

Most advanced metrics don't value low stock guys which Hunter is one obviously. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by NBASupes

[hylndr11]

Tickets sales is not attendance guys. We are in bottom half in attendance. This goes into ownerships stuff that we are starting to see come out.  I'll just say this has always been an question regarding new ownership with the Corp/group large ticket buyers who aren't trying to turn this into wine and cheese crowd like you see some other owners try and do while flipping the team.  Many group bulk buyers wanted to know if we would go into the tax if we needed too.

[Final_quest]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No. I like the way he defends. The rebounding is all about positioning, he's usually on the perimeter but Barnes limes the post so what happened, he got a lot of rebounds. While getting deflections and steals are valuable, so is defensive discipline. Something Hunter does at an very high level.

Handles are only a problem when it's as bad as it was last year. He's able to get to the rack and finish or get to his pull up. I am fine with it. Not ideal but not a negative. I see what PB is saying. You guys are way more harsh on Hunter issues than Trae when Trae one actually hurts us as a team more but the love affair you guys have with offense is exceptionally loyal.

Most advanced metrics don't value low stock guys which Hunter is one obviously. 

That doesn’t sound very compelling.  No metrics to support anything, and the difference is Trae creates 60 points a game.  No one schemes to stop Hunter.  They try to stop Trae with double teams and can’t.
Not really trying to argue, but your POV comes across as an intangible claim that Hunter’s defense is where he makes a big impact.  I see him as average in terms of overall impact and if opinions on his defense is the only evidence to say otherwise that’s not a persuasive stance.  
Peace to you and I really hope you are right about Hunter.  

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

That doesn’t sound very compelling.  No metrics to support anything, and the difference is Trae creates 60 points a game.  No one schemes to stop Hunter.  They try to stop Trae with double teams and can’t.
Not really trying to argue, but your POV comes across as an intangible claim that Hunter’s defense is where he makes a big impact.  I see him as average in terms of overall impact and if opinions on his defense is the only evidence to say otherwise that’s not a persuasive stance.  
Peace to you and I really hope you are right about Hunter.  

I can agree with the Trae take in the first paragraph. 

Hunter impact on defense shows on his on/off metrics but like I said, low stocks doesn't give him the credit he deserves. We saw the same with Klay Thompson in his prime years in Golden State.

6 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Tickets sales is not attendance guys. We are in bottom half in attendance. This goes into ownerships stuff that we are starting to see come out.  I'll just say this has always been an question regarding new ownership with the Corp/group large ticket buyers who aren't trying to turn this into wine and cheese crowd like you see some other owners try and do while flipping the team.  Many group bulk buyers wanted to know if we would go into the tax if we needed too.

This is impressive 

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

I’m really encouraged by his play lately, but more making the point that I am pretty far from seeing him as our 2nd best player.  

 

2nd best player? Is he the 2nd highest paid player? You Hunter hater just kill me. Never satisfied with anything this guy does.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

What about low activity for rebounding, deflections, and steals?  Less than stellar handles and limited ability to drive to the rim and draw fouls.  He is not just a weak passer, but the exact opposite of a stat stuffer.  
It’s not just PER he grades low on nearly every advanced stat to the point that anyone in his draft class with a lower VORP is basically out of the league.  

I question his basketball IQ.  He's mechanical in a bad way.   He gets the ball and he moves to one of his preferred spots to shoot.   This will become predictable... and some have already caught on.  It's probably why he doesn't pass so well.  And he makes no effort to...

but here's another example of bad basketball IQ.... (Not to mention the other night before Nate, Trae, and AJ bailed us out.

Last night, end of the game, we were up 8 or 10... he gets the ball.  Sactown is in a must foul mode.   He and Trae are in the backcourt.   Trae is calling for the ball.   He didn't pass it to Trae. 

Here's the problem...

Trae shoots 92-93% from the FT and he makes FTs under pressure.  Sactown is in a must foul situation.  Last game, you almost cost us the game missing two pressure FTs.  The correct move is to pass the damn ball to Trae.

What did he do...

Kept the ball, dribbled into the frontcourt and threw the ball right to Sactown and they scored.

That's Dumbassness...

[marco102]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

2nd best player? Is he the 2nd highest paid player? You Hunter hater just kill me. Never satisfied with anything this guy does.

This isn't about this post, but your previous post. 

Pointing out where a player can improve like his rebounding and passing is not hating. 

It's something he legit needs to improve. 

Just like pointing out Trae's shot selection and defense needs improvement. 

The difference is Trae shot 11-19 tonight and 4-7 from three.  If you are upset over three shots he took, that seems more like hating than constructive criticism when he was clearly our best player last night.

Edited November 24, 2022 by marco102

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, benhillboy said:

A. Ho is at 2.3 but pout taken.  One should reasonably expect John and Dre to at least be at that threshold.  Dre can go an entire game without making a well-read, timed, and accurate possession-advancing pass.

The Dre fanclub on here is the most perplexing to me. He is the 4th overall pick we gave up a kings' ransom to acquire him. The incredibly low standard he is held to, it is mind boggling to me. Here is where he ranks among the 34 SFs with 300+ mins on the year:

PER: 25th ( bottom 74th percentile)

TS%: 24th (bottom 71st percentile)

TREB%: 26th (bottom 77th percentile)

ASST%: 33rd (lsecond worst player at his position (bottom 98th percentile)

STL%: 32nd (third worst, bottom 94th percentile)

Win Shares per 48 mins: 25th 

Box +-: 30th (bottom 88th percentile)

VORP:  30th

These are Taurean Prince level numbers. And this is not a case of a small sample that will get better they are in line with career avgs. And I GET IT. Dre is a defensive player who's contributions don't show up in the stat sheet yada yada. But is he an elite defender? All Nba First team, second team, or third team? Honestly? No, he isn't.  He struggles against both smaller quicker guys and against bigger taller guys, he doesn't defensive rebound, he doesn't cause turnovers, he bails out players by fouling too many times (not entirely his fault as some calls are BS, but still). He guards mostly just 3s effectively and some 2s but definitely not all of them. His team defense is certainly very good, but it's also not out of this world or elite.

Having said all that I think Hunter can be salvagable, but he needs to learn how to rebound and he needs to attack the basket all game. He's never going to be a standout offensive player with his absolute lack of playmaking ability, but he could become I guess maybe average or slightly below avg.  I do think he has the tools to be an elite defender, but he isn't there yet and at his age he really should be playing close to his prime level by now. Maybe we can say due to how much time he has missed his timeline for reaching his peak level has been delayed. I hope so. Because if he doesn't improve in a very significant way it's a horrible contract. Paying top 10 money for a bottom 10 player at his position. 

 

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I question his basketball IQ.  He's mechanical in a bad way.   He gets the ball and he moves to one of his preferred spots to shoot.   This will become predictable... and some have already caught on.  It's probably why he doesn't pass so well.  And he makes no effort to...

but here's another example of bad basketball IQ.... (Not to mention the other night before Nate, Trae, and AJ bailed us out.

Last night, end of the game, we were up 8 or 10... he gets the ball.  Sactown is in a must foul mode.   He and Trae are in the backcourt.   Trae is calling for the ball.   He didn't pass it to Trae. 

Here's the problem...

Trae shoots 92-93% from the FT and he makes FTs under pressure.  Sactown is in a must foul situation.  Last game, you almost cost us the game missing two pressure FTs.  The correct move is to pass the damn ball to Trae.

What did he do...

Kept the ball, dribbled into the frontcourt and threw the ball right to Sactown and they scored.

That's Dumbassness...

That's most players in the NBA though. It's called tendencies. Even Trae who's bag is bigger than anyone's in the NBA has tendencies.

Overreactions are hilarious when many on this team make a lot more mistakes than Hunter. This fanbase can be truly idiotic depending on the player. 

 

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Dre fanclub on here is the most perplexing to me. He is the 4th overall pick we gave up a kings' ransom to acquire him. The incredibly low standard he is held to, it is mind boggling to me. Here is where he ranks among the 34 SFs with 300+ mins on the year:

PER: 25th ( bottom 74th percentile)

TS%: 24th (bottom 71st percentile)

TREB%: 26th (bottom 77th percentile)

ASST%: 33rd (lsecond worst player at his position (bottom 98th percentile)

STL%: 32nd (third worst, bottom 94th percentile)

Win Shares per 48 mins: 25th 

Box +-: 30th (bottom 88th percentile)

VORP:  30th

These are Taurean Prince level numbers. And this is not a case of a small sample that will get better they are in line with career avgs. And I GET IT. Dre is a defensive player who's contributions don't show up in the stat sheet yada yada. But is he an elite defender? All Nba First team, second team, or third team? Honestly? No, he isn't.  He struggles against both smaller quicker guys and against bigger taller guys, he doesn't defensive rebound, he doesn't cause turnovers, he bails out players by fouling too many times (not entirely his fault as some calls are BS, but still). He guards mostly just 3s effectively and some 2s but definitely not all of them. His team defense is certainly very good, but it's also not out of this world or elite.

Having said all that I think Hunter can be salvagable, but he needs to learn how to rebound and he needs to attack the basket all game. He's never going to be a standout offensive player with his absolute lack of playmaking ability, but he could become I guess maybe average or slightly below avg.  I do think he has the tools to be an elite defender, but he isn't there yet and at his age he really should be playing close to his prime level by now. Maybe we can say due to how much time he has missed his timeline for reaching his peak level has been delayed. I hope so. Because if he doesn't improve in a very significant way it's a horrible contract. Paying top 10 money for a bottom 10 player at his position. 

 

 

 

 

Brainless posting.

PER is a stocks based stat. Useless in terms of evaluation of Hunter or players like him. 

Hunter shoots from all over the shot chart, he's not a candidate you expect to be high on the TS charts. 

Once again, he's a discipline defender, our only one outside of Capela. He's not gonna be high on rebounding charts unless he's going against someone like Harrison Barnes which guess what, he had 10 rebounds. 

Passing is a clear issue for Hunter

Steals is not a big deal for his playing style and what we need from him.

Once again, stop posting bullshit stocks based stats when he's not a stocks player. It makes you come off as a dumbass who don't understand Basketball. Just looks at stats and be like, see!

You wrote two paragraphs of bullshit. Your take on Hunter is garbage and i respect and f*** with you as a poster so this is just to your take on Hunter alone. Not you as a poster.

I don't know what's so hard to see on Hunter. His defense is very good. Defends 4 positions and excels Defending big wings which is the most critical need in the NBA for all teams. He can score on three levels. He can shoot. He is heady. It's easy to see why people love him like Doris Burke and Shaq.

Edited November 24, 2022 by NBASupes

[Dejay]

48 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Tickets sales is not attendance guys. We are in bottom half in attendance. This goes into ownerships stuff that we are starting to see come out.  I'll just say this has always been an question regarding new ownership with the Corp/group large ticket buyers who aren't trying to turn this into wine and cheese crowd like you see some other owners try and do while flipping the team.  Many group bulk buyers wanted to know if we would go into the tax if we needed too.

They're 17th overall because of the arena size, which is bottom-5 overall and technically only a few hundred seats more than the Omni was. I'm more than confident that if they didn't renovate the building, they'd have 19-20k in there every night. 

I've been to a few of the games and there aren't swaths of open seats floating around as we've been so accustomed to...

[Final_quest]

40 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

2nd best player? Is he the 2nd highest paid player? You Hunter hater just kill me. Never satisfied with anything this guy does.

Read the thread Supes mentioned him as potentially our 2nd best player if Murray struggled.  
Despite my criticism I don’t see my take on Hunter as hate, I haven’t been convinced by anyone claiming his impact is significant.  Is that hate?  

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Read the thread Supes mentioned him as potentially our 2nd best player if Murray struggled.  
Despite my criticism I don’t see my take on Hunter as hate, I haven’t been convinced by anyone claiming his impact is significant.  Is that hate?  

I believe he has the 2nd highest impact on this team right now.

1. Trae

2. Hunter

Without him, I don't think we can win. We can win without Murray or Clint. We can't win without Hunter. Last year, we could but till Bogi is back, we need Hunter. 

Maybe impact is a bad word, irreplaceable is better 

Edited November 24, 2022 by NBASupes

[hylndr11]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I can agree with the Trae take in the first paragraph. 

Hunter impact on defense shows on his on/off metrics but like I said, low stocks doesn't give him the credit he deserves. We saw the same with Klay Thompson in his prime years in Golden State.

This is impressive 

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct

Yes, this is his whole goal, to make the franchise attractive. This is why they changed the group buy stuff - those tickets are free and get counted, more ppl go when tickets are given to them from their job or organization.  Yes it is also better than before, we are winning more, but also promised NOT to be the team the legacy hawks have been regarding ownership.