Official Game Thread: Kings at Hawks

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

That's most players in the NBA though. It's called tendencies. Even Trae who's bag is bigger than anyone's in the NBA has tendencies.

Overreactions are hilarious when many on this team make a lot more mistakes than Hunter. This fanbase can be truly idiotic depending on the player. 

 

It's not overreaction...  He doesn't pass and his tendencies become places where other teams will learn and take advantage.  Look how many times he walks into a trap.  He's trapped because they know exactly where he's going and they know he's not passing.  I call those Low BBIQ moments.   He's like a robot from the 80s... he does the same pattern over and over... eventually, it will be mapped out.   Trae does have tendencies.  However, he can improvise too.  Dre cannot or have not. 

 

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I believe he has the 2nd highest impact on this team right now.

1. Trae

2. Hunter

Without him, I don't think we can win. We can win without Murray or Clint. We can't win without Hunter. Last year, we could but till Bogi is back, we need Hunter. 

Maybe impact is a bad word, irreplaceable is better 

Big disrespect to Clint and DJM....

Defense matters Supes...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hunter career PER of 11 with a negative +- every year and averages under 4 rebounds for his career with a TS% of around 54%. Trae was the second player in NBA HISTORY to lead the league in assists and points and gets more double doubles in a week than Hunter has for his career.  I wonder why he gets more respect mind boggling homersim it must be. 

It's crazy, because Atlanta hasn't had a guy close to a bonafide superstar since Nique.  A guy that the opposing team has to game plan all out for, in order to try to stop him.  The fact that they send double teams at Trae beginning at half court, is amazing to me.  They fear his offensive ability so much, that they make a full commitment to take the ball out of his hands.  When that happens, other people MUST step up and make open shots or winning plays.

As much as I loved the steadiness of Joe Johnson as a player, he never had that all out killer instinct mentality.  Nor did he have superstar talent.  Trae has both.  And it's like people hate him for it.

If you watch the star and superstar players around the league, ALL of them, with the exception of Steph Curry, take tough, even bad shots.  I trust a Trae 30 footer more than I trust most of these guys taking a wide open 3.  

When it comes to Dre, just play solid defense and knock down your open shots.   If he does that, that's all I expect.

 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It's crazy, because Atlanta hasn't had a guy close to a bonafide superstar since Nique.  A guy that the opposing team has to game plan all out for, in order to try to stop him.  The fact that they send double teams at Trae beginning at half court, is amazing to me.  They fear his offensive ability so much, that they make a full commitment to take the ball out of his hands.  When that happens, other people MUST step up and make open shots or winning plays.

As much as I loved the steadiness of Joe Johnson as a player, he never had that all out killer instinct mentality.  Nor did he have superstar talent.  Trae has both.  And it's like people hate him for it.

If you watch the star and superstar players around the league, ALL of them, with the exception of Steph Curry, take tough, even bad shots.  I trust a Trae 30 footer more than I trust most of these guys taking a wide open 3.  

When it comes to Dre, just play solid defense and knock down your open shots.   If he does that, that's all I expect.

 

I have to agree with the above statement.   Joe was a silent killer but it was clear that a guy like Jamal Crawford had more killer instinct.  Joe would be the guy who ended the game with 37 points but they were quiet points.  No back breaking shots.   

Last night, Trae was doubled coming across halfcourt.   Nobody on the team was moving so Trae dropped a logo three on Sactown.  Back breaking.   I hate that shot.  But I love it when it goes in and it's something that nobody else in the league does.  But he does so many other things.  I just wish his teammates would move.   AJ comes in the game and Rook moves around and Trae rewards him.    JC, Dre, and everybody else except AJ and Clint don't move. 

I feel like Nate has to open up the PNR.   Like Utah used to do it.  Stockton had several options in the PNR which is how Utah found themselves in the finals.   While the PNR with Malone was going on...   Russel was moving.  Hornacek was moving.  And they knew that they had to be ready...  We don't do that. 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

For many, many years fans cried, "This Hawk team must have a PG!"  Then, along came Trae!  Rejoice, because we've found our PG!  

Sure, he takes some of those logo shots.  Scares any opponent when he hits one.  Hit a couple and they lose their mind!  But he misses a lot of them.  So what.  Just the thought that they might go in!

His passing ability is much better than any PG that has wore a Hawks uniform in ages.  We needed this for so long before he came here.  He gets a lot of assists and misses a lot when the player he passes to misses his shot.

His terrible defense is better.  That's not saying a lot, but it is.  He's still playing a lot of minutes per game.  Any other NBA team's goal?  Stop Trae!

[Atlantaholic]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I believe he has the 2nd highest impact on this team right now.

1. Trae

2. Hunter

Without him, I don't think we can win. We can win without Murray or Clint. We can't win without Hunter. Last year, we could but till Bogi is back, we need Hunter. 

Maybe impact is a bad word, irreplaceable is better 

He literally last in simple net rating among all starters (third worst among rotation players only better than the Holidays).

He's always dead last in net rating among starters btw. Well I should say almost always. The one excetpion was his 19 game second second season. Incredible how all those numbers you say are meaningless for Hunter  were at career highs by a big margin that year. (PER. 15.7, TS% 57, career high in rebound rate, steal rate, assist rate etc.)

This is Hunter's net rating by year and where they rank on the team among rotation players and the top starters (top 10 and top 5 mins played)

2020: -17 ; Rotation: ranking  (Tied 7th/10);  Starter ranking : (5/5) - Tied with Bembry, better than Vince and Cam

2021:  +5  Rotation ranking: (6/10); Starter ranking (3/5) - He ranked above Huerter and Trae, and below Collins and Cap

2022: -9  Rotation ranking (9/10) Starter ranking (5/5)  - Only better than Lou Williams

2023: -8  rotation ranking (7/10) Starter ranking (5/5) - Only better than the Hol bros.

in seasons '21 and '22 he ranked out of the top 5 in mins but I'm bumping him into the top 5 so we can compare him to the other starters. 

Care to spot the outlier?

Only thing that makes Hunter particularily valueable this year specifically is that him missing a game means Justin Holiday gets minutes again. Holiday is hands down, no doubt about it one of the five worst players at either wing position in the NBA this year. out of 112 players to log 200+ mins at either SG or SF Holiday ranks in the bottom 5 or 10 in virtually every statistical category that exists. Signign a G-leaguer off the street and giving him J-Hol minutes would instantly improve us. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, sturt said:

(My guess is that this is already posted somewhere in the thread, but it just now showed up in my Twitter feed.)

 

 

All Hawks fans should forever love Kevin Huerter.  He is almost solely responsible for this team getting to the EC Finals.  The shots he made in this game were superstar type shots.  Had he not made these shots, Trae gets DEMOLISHED by this fan base, with his 5 - 23 FG performance in that game.  Despite that, Trae came up big in the 4th, with 10 points, to help Kevin and Gallo ( who should also be celebrated the first time he comes back to Atlanta . . . even if he's wearing that puke green uniform ).

Kevin's Game 7 performance in Philly has to be ranked up there with the top 5 performances of the past 35 years.

[Atlantaholic]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

All Hawks fans should forever love Kevin Huerter.  He is almost solely responsible for this team getting to the EC Finals.  The shots he made in this game were superstar type shots.  Had he not made these shots, Trae gets DEMOLISHED by this fan base, with his 5 - 23 FG performance in that game.  Despite that, Trae came up big in the 4th, with 10 points, to help Kevin and Gallo ( who should also be celebrated the first time he comes back to Atlanta . . . even if he's wearing that puke green uniform ).

Kevin's Game 7 performance in Philly has to be ranked up there with the top 5 performances of the past 35 years.

It's argueably the most important performance in Atlanta Hawks team history.

[marco102]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

If you watch the star and superstar players around the league, ALL of them, with the exception of Steph Curry, take tough, even bad shots.  I trust a Trae 30 footer more than I trust most of these guys taking a wide open 3.  

When it comes to Dre, just play solid defense and knock down your open shots.   If he does that, that's all I expect.

 

Steph takes ridiculously tough shots, he's just a bad shot maker. 

[Final_quest]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

He literally last in simple net rating among all starters (third worst among rotation players only better than the Holidays).

He's always dead last in net rating among starters btw. Well I should say almost always. The one excetpion was his 19 game second second season. Incredible how all those numbers you say are meaningless for Hunter  were at career highs by a big margin that year. (PER. 15.7, TS% 57, career high in rebound rate, steal rate, assist rate etc.)

This is Hunter's net rating by year and where they rank on the team among rotation players and the top starters (top 10 and top 5 mins played)

2020: -17 ; Rotation: ranking  (Tied 7th/10);  Starter ranking : (5/5) - Tied with Bembry, better than Vince and Cam

2021:  +5  Rotation ranking: (6/10); Starter ranking (3/5) - He ranked above Huerter and Trae, and below Collins and Cap

2022: -9  Rotation ranking (9/10) Starter ranking (5/5)  - Only better than Lou Williams

2023: -8  rotation ranking (7/10) Starter ranking (5/5) - Only better than the Hol bros.

in seasons '21 and '22 he ranked out of the top 5 in mins but I'm bumping him into the top 5 so we can compare him to the other starters. 

Care to spot the outlier?

Only thing that makes Hunter particularily valueable this year specifically is that him missing a game means Justin Holiday gets minutes again. Holiday is hands down, no doubt about it one of the five worst players at either wing position in the NBA this year. out of 112 players to log 200+ mins at either SG or SF Holiday ranks in the bottom 5 or 10 in virtually every statistical category that exists. Signign a G-leaguer off the street and giving him J-Hol minutes would instantly improve us. 

There is a lot of evidence.  You don’t need to resort to insults and subjective opinion to make your point. 

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, marco102 said:

Steph takes ridiculously tough shots, he's just a bad shot maker. 

Oh Steph takes insane shots. Kinda surprised to single him out when that's one of the things he's most known for. His game-winner the other day was just stupid and if Trae took a shot like that he would be lynched immediately by the folks here on the board (Justifiably so). But that's why Steph is Steph, he can take whatever shot he wants when he wants, he makes those shots at in an incredible rate. Trae doesn't shoot well enough to justify shots like that though. As good of a shooter as he is not in Steph's level, and that's no knock on Trae as a player that's just a fact. Trae needs to improve his shot selection at times, I think we can all agree on that. 

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Oh Steph takes insane shots. Kinda surprised to single him out when that's one of the things he's most known for. His game-winner the other day was just stupid and if Trae took a shot like that he would be lynched immediately by the folks here on the board (Justifiably so). But that's why Steph is Steph, he can take whatever shot he wants when he wants, he makes those shots at in an incredible rate. Trae doesn't shoot well enough to justify shots like that though. As good of a shooter as he is not in Steph's level, and that's no knock on Trae as a player that's just a fact. Trae needs to improve his shot selection at times, I think we can all agree on that. 

Why shouldn't I single him out? He's missed a lot of insane shots too. The poster was trying to say every super star takes bad shots except for Steph.  Steph does take bad shots. He just makes some of them.  I've seen Steph shoot GS out of a game when he's struggling. It's happened a lot in the past few seasons. 

Edit: Might want to read the entire thread. I've said Trae can improve his shot selection, but someone talking about three shots when he goes 11-19 is real nit picky. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by marco102

[MarylandHawk]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

No. I like the way he defends. The rebounding is all about positioning, he's usually on the perimeter but Barnes limes the post so what happened, he got a lot of rebounds. While getting deflections and steals are valuable, so is defensive discipline. Something Hunter does at an very high level.

Handles are only a problem when it's as bad as it was last year. He's able to get to the rack and finish or get to his pull up. I am fine with it. Not ideal but not a negative. I see what PB is saying. You guys are way more harsh on Hunter issues than Trae when Trae one actually hurts us as a team more but the love affair you guys have with offense is exceptionally loyal.

Most advanced metrics don't value low stock guys which Hunter is one obviously. 

I agree with you on Dre. Lost me on the Trae comparison but I will take the exceptionally loyal title. Lol. 

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, marco102 said:

Why shouldn't I single him out? He's missed a lot of insane shots too. The poster was trying to say every super star takes bad shots except for Steph.  Steph does take bad shots. He just makes some of them.  I've seen Steph shoot GS out of a game when he's struggling. It's happened a lot in the past few seasons. 

I meant the other poster singling Steph out as a player that takes great shots. He doesn't. He just makes a lot of them.

[Sothron]

9 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

It's crazy, because Atlanta hasn't had a guy close to a bonafide superstar since Nique.  A guy that the opposing team has to game plan all out for, in order to try to stop him.  The fact that they send double teams at Trae beginning at half court, is amazing to me.  They fear his offensive ability so much, that they make a full commitment to take the ball out of his hands.  When that happens, other people MUST step up and make open shots or winning plays.

As much as I loved the steadiness of Joe Johnson as a player, he never had that all out killer instinct mentality.  Nor did he have superstar talent.  Trae has both.  And it's like people hate him for it.

If you watch the star and superstar players around the league, ALL of them, with the exception of Steph Curry, take tough, even bad shots.  I trust a Trae 30 footer more than I trust most of these guys taking a wide open 3.  

When it comes to Dre, just play solid defense and knock down your open shots.   If he does that, that's all I expect.

 

Joe was a star and close to superstar. He's a HOFer. 7 times All Star and 20k points plus being an excellent defensive SG. The rare two way star player. But no one was scared of him like they are scared of Trae.

It's like Bird used to say: there are HOFers and then there are HOFers. I know which one Joe is (and I love Joe, his jersey should already be retired in Atlanta) and a I know which one Trae is probably going to be.

[Spud2nique]

On 11/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, LongTimeFan said:

Just curious... what is your record against the Hawks actual record in these games?
No agenda, just kinda' wondering how your game compares to the real games.
Thanks. 

13-5. It’s pretty close to our real record. A bit better. 2 games better. Lots of player attributes and things are eerily accurate. 

[Spud2nique]

Griff dives on the floor. Who does that anymore?   

[StonedDogs]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:01 PM, marco102 said:

Generally everyone does, but list out the strikeouts? 

John Collins - Hit

Trae Young - Hit

Kevin Huerter - Hit

Omari - bust

DeAndre Hunter - remains to be seen, but def not a bust.

Cam Reddish - Not a hit

OO - Hit IMO

Jalen Johnson - remains to be seen

AJ Griffin - Hit so far.

 

Looks like Travis has more hits than busts.

 

JC trade block every year

Trae/Luka, I mean you couldn't miss. It was an underhanded toss

Heurter is gone

Spellman gone

Bruno gone

Cooper gone

Mays gone

Cam gone

Pierce gone

Hunter to be seen 

OO doesn't play enough 

Jalen to be seen

Griffin is a hit

 

Schlenk is given a generous 30% from the field. 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

20 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Dre fanclub on here is the most perplexing to me. He is the 4th overall pick we gave up a kings' ransom to acquire him. The incredibly low standard he is held to, it is mind boggling to me. Here is where he ranks among the 34 SFs with 300+ mins on the year:

PER: 25th ( bottom 74th percentile)

TS%: 24th (bottom 71st percentile)

TREB%: 26th (bottom 77th percentile)

ASST%: 33rd (lsecond worst player at his position (bottom 98th percentile)

STL%: 32nd (third worst, bottom 94th percentile)

Win Shares per 48 mins: 25th 

Box +-: 30th (bottom 88th percentile)

VORP:  30th

These are Taurean Prince level numbers. And this is not a case of a small sample that will get better they are in line with career avgs. And I GET IT. Dre is a defensive player who's contributions don't show up in the stat sheet yada yada. But is he an elite defender? All Nba First team, second team, or third team? Honestly? No, he isn't.  He struggles against both smaller quicker guys and against bigger taller guys, he doesn't defensive rebound, he doesn't cause turnovers, he bails out players by fouling too many times (not entirely his fault as some calls are BS, but still). He guards mostly just 3s effectively and some 2s but definitely not all of them. His team defense is certainly very good, but it's also not out of this world or elite.

Having said all that I think Hunter can be salvagable, but he needs to learn how to rebound and he needs to attack the basket all game. He's never going to be a standout offensive player with his absolute lack of playmaking ability, but he could become I guess maybe average or slightly below avg.  I do think he has the tools to be an elite defender, but he isn't there yet and at his age he really should be playing close to his prime level by now. Maybe we can say due to how much time he has missed his timeline for reaching his peak level has been delayed. I hope so. Because if he doesn't improve in a very significant way it's a horrible contract. Paying top 10 money for a bottom 10 player at his position. 

 

When Supes starts cussing at you, you posted something good. 

The fact that he's at the bottom percentile of ALL of those advanced metrics you just listed, means that Dre isn't great at anything.  Nada.  He's that B- / C+ student in high school that teachers see potential in, and tries to encourage him to try harder to make better grades.  But Dre is content with being that B- student, because it's a passing grade, and he's not willing to put in the extra effort to be great at even one thing.

So once again, great post.

 

Just accept that he's a low energy player that just tries to do his job.  Nothing more.  He's going to make very few game changing plays on both ends of the floor.  He's just going to be solid on most nights.  And he doesn't strive to be great at anything.

As long as we have 3 - 4 other players who are capable to play at a high level on any given night, what Dre is doing is OK.

Cherish what you see here, because you may never see this out of Dre ever again.  AJ will have a game like this before Dre ever does in the future.

 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

When Supes starts cussing at you, you posted something good. 

I’m bustin