Official Game Thread: Celtics at Hawks (Monday)

[terrell]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Neither have to go.

The issue with this team has always been the frontcourt.

Nah man Trae Murray duo is a trainwreck defensively..

[AHF]

My gut says that the team will be better with someone with size at the 2 plus whatever upgrades from the trade than with Trae and DJM together. Just too much duplication between them and only one ball to share.  
 

On the other side, Trae + DJM means terrible defense.  Trae or DJM + actual SG = better defense.

[deester11]

10 hours ago, terrell said:

Murray is clearly the leader of the team... And the players love him..

Just listen when the guys talk about him

I never here them talk this way about Trae..

You coming out of left field with shyt here. I don't mind your disdain for Trae but this is Bullshyt. 

[bird_dirt]

4 hours ago, aali34 said:

I don't know. Murray is the number 2 for this team and I think we're better off with Jalen being the number 2. The synergy between Trae and Jalen if done right could be like what Joker and Jamal Murray have. 2 players dominating possessions who have a symbiotic relationship with their styles of play. Trae gives JJ easy scoring opportunities, opens up the floor for him, and mitigates his limited self creation(for now) and JJ makes teams pay for trapping Trae or running a zone and he adds a second layer of playmaking off of the chaos Trae creates.

I would like to see DJ go for a true point of attack gaurd defender. If you cant, might as well keep him and hope their chemistry improves.

They don’t call them The Pickle Bros for nothing!

[Hawkmoor]

21 hours ago, terrell said:

I’m not going to say the Hawks are better without Trae. But I think we have enough of a sample size to say they are not demonstrably worse...................................

22-29 with

10-10 without

 

And players like Hunter get to showcase what they can really do.

[deester11]

9 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

And players like Hunter get to showcase what they can really do.

Lmao...he's never had the chance before? Hell nah..good to see aggressive Hunter but that "Trae out crap" don't fly.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

And players like Hunter get to showcase what they can really do.

Dre in October 16.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in December 16.3 points, 3.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in February 17.0 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists.

Dre in March 16.8 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.8 assists.

(Dre played hurt in November which hurt his numbers and sat out hurt in January).

[deester11]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Dre in October 16.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in December 16.3 points, 3.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in February 17.0 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists.

Dre in March 16.8 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.8 assists.

(Dre played hurt in November which hurt his numbers and sat out hurt in January).

What part of that is showcased? Lmao 

[Hawkmoor]

35 minutes ago, deester11 said:

Lmao...he's never had the chance before? Hell nah..good to see aggressive Hunter but that "Trae out crap" don't fly.

I remember the Miami playoff series in which Hunter carried the Hawks when the Heat shut down Trae.  They game planned for Trae, he shot poorly and Hunter stepped up.  Hunter's good play over the last month or so isn't the first time he has showcased what he can do.  They NEED Trae but they also need MORE than Trae.  One player can't do it.

 

 

[Hawkmoor]

39 minutes ago, AHF said:

Dre in October 16.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in December 16.3 points, 3.5 rebounds, 1.3 assists.

Dre in February 17.0 points, 3.7 rebounds, 1.1 assists.

Dre in March 16.8 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.8 assists.

(Dre played hurt in November which hurt his numbers and sat out hurt in January).

Its also WHEN and HOW you get your stats during the game.

16 hours ago, NBASupes said:

That said, the defense without Trae is clearly much better and the offense is a lot less of a threat if the shots aren't falling. 

 

Very good accessment.

Edited March 27 by Hawkmoor

[givemesome1ce1]

I said it before and I’ll say it again. It is crazy how good the defense could be when we play only ONE SMALL GUARD at a time instead of two for majority of the game. Yet for some reason people still want to act like Trae is the biggest problem with this defense. If we run a normal guard rotation with Trae, this team probably is a lot better on defense. I dont understand why so many people don’t get this. Look at the numbers AND the eye test proves it.
 

 

Edited March 27 by givemesome1ce1

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I do think a big reason our defense has improved is the rule enforcement changes, but I also think DJ is a much better defender at PG... so it's really both.

What we've been able to accomplish on offense without Trae has been impressive to say the least -- feels like Quin's system is starting to take hold.   

DJ is actually defending worse with Trae out.  ( 53% defended FG% in the past 15 games ).

His defensive value is with his defensive rebounding.

The offense overall has been much worse as well.

Everyone mentions Trae, but the people everyone praises for making good contributions ( Bruno, Vit, Mathews ), all play in the frontcourt.  Also, OO has been out all but 2 of the last 15 games.  Bruno's physical activity in the paint is something OO simply doesn't bring to the table.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, bleachkit said:

I'm not sure Trae is worthy of that distinguished honor. How many guys in the NBA are truly worth building around?

What about the guys in Phoenix?

lol

[deester11]

7 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

I remember the Miami playoff series in which Hunter carried the Hawks when the Heat shut down Trae.  They game planned for Trae, he shot poorly and Hunter stepped up.  Hunter's good play over the last month or so isn't the first time he has showcased what he can do.  They NEED Trae but they also need MORE than Trae.  One player can't do it.

 

 

I've never said he couldn't show up.  He has at times on an inconsistent basis throughout his career.  As a detractor of his I'm not even bashing him and I think this is the most consistent and aggressive I've ever seen him.  Thats got nothing to do with Trae being out.  

It's easy and lazy to say the team is this and that with /without Trae, but I can't go along with narratives that say player X is better because Trae is out.  Any fool worth his millions SHOULD by attrition have better, more opportunities with Trae out.  The key is to perform in that instance. To his credit, Hunter has done that and I can acknowledge all of it.

Edited March 27 by deester11

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

DJ is actually defending worse with Trae out.  ( 53% defended FG% in the past 15 games ).

His defensive value is with his defensive rebounding.

The offense overall has been much worse as well.

Everyone mentions Trae, but the people everyone praises for making good contributions ( Bruno, Vit, Mathews ), all play in the frontcourt.  Also, OO has been out all but 2 of the last 15 games.  Bruno's physical activity in the paint is something OO simply doesn't bring to the table.

I think we mentioned it that a lot of players have gotten better of late. Clearly better, in particular Bruno and Vit 

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I think we mentioned it that a lot of players have gotten better of late. Clearly better, in particular Bruno and Vit 

Vit still feels like an end of bench guy to me.  Bruno, however, seems like he's played himself into a backup 5 role.  Next year could look something like this?  

PG:  Trae / Kobe / Vit

SG:  Bigger defensive Wing Draft Pick / Bogie / Kobe

SF:  JJ / DH / Bey

PF:  OO / Vet / Mo

C :  7-footer Draft Pick / Bruno / OO

[NBASupes]

Just now, REHawksFan said:

Vit still feels like an end of bench guy to me.  Bruno, however, seems like he's played himself into a backup 5 role.  Next year could look something like this?  

PG:  Trae / Kobe / Vit

SG:  Bigger defensive Wing Draft Pick / Bogie / Kobe

SF:  JJ / DH / Bey

PF:  OO / Vet / Mo

C :  7-footer Draft Pick / Bruno / OO

He may be just that but he's a lot better than what he was. Before, he wasn't even an NBA prospect. When he started playing this year for us, he was a clear Euroleague player, he's improved to the point, and he added some positive value. That's an insane jump. 

[Atlantaholic]

13 hours ago, terrell said:

Nah man Trae Murray duo is a trainwreck defensively..

And neither is optimized offensively to boot. The front office is well aware the fit has not worked, question is what can we do to fix it? If all we are getting for Murray are sub-Austin Reaves value deals we are kinda left with no choice but to keep trying to fit the round peg in the square hole. 

[Hawkmoor]

4 hours ago, deester11 said:

I've never said he couldn't show up.  He has at times on an inconsistent basis throughout his career.  As a detractor of his I'm not even bashing him and I think this is the most consistent and aggressive I've ever seen him.  Thats got nothing to do with Trae being out.  

It's easy and lazy to say the team is this and that with /without Trae, but I can't go along with narratives that say player X is better because Trae is out.  Any fool worth his millions SHOULD by attrition have better, more opportunities with Trae out.  The key is to perform in that instance. To his credit, Hunter has done that and I can acknowledge all of it.

 I'm gonna say this one time and highlight it:  The Hawks have proven that without Trae, the offense is WORST.  They NEED Trae Young.  Everyone knows I'm a big Trae Young detractor but the Hawks themselves have proven that they need him and I AGREE.  If anything, Trae being out has proven to ME how badly they do need him on offense.

Why are some of yall making this be "Trae bashing"?  If anything positive is said about Hunter or another player because Trae is out, the narrative is put out that its "Trae Bashing".  The pitchforks come out. The real issue is the Hawks are being able to get something positive out of something negative with Trae being out.  It forced the Hawks coaching staff and players to expand and come up with alternatives on offense. When Trae comes back, thats a positive.  If the coaching staff goes back to a backcourt heavy offense without using their bigs at forward, thats a coaching problem. 

The help that folks want him to have can come from INSIDE the current roster. It doesn't always have to come from a trade or free agent signing.  Another POSITIVE that has come out of this is the defense has improved.  Thats not Trae bashing, its just what it is.  The Hawks have learned that they CAN play defense.  How that works out when Young comes back remains to be seen.  Maybe they sit him in certain situations and go offense for defense,  defense for offense, etc.  It can be worked out.  Everything that is happening is a net positive.  Trae remains the best option on offense,  the Hawks have discovered that Hunter can help D.J. and Johnson, and they learned how to play lock down defense as a cohesive unit.

 

Edited March 27 by Hawkmoor

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

If the coaching staff goes back to a backcourt heavy offense without using their bigs at forward, thats a coaching problem. 

Before the ball tipped on the season, the concern pointed out by some of us, in particular @macdaddy and @TheNorthCydeRises regarding the depth and size in the front court that it was problematic. JJ getting injured, followed by Hunter was immediately apparent. Compounded with CC losing a step and OO not taking the next step was also the issue.