Official Game Thread: Celtics at Hawks (Monday)

[bleachkit]

How do we get Trae and DJ as a fit on defense? I'm not sure that's going to be possible. At the very least having Trae out is giving management a look at what a post-Trae Hawks team might look like, so it is providing a new perspective. 

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

ps Nobody ever say Pritchard don’t care about the ATL he fed the crowd chicken !!!  

An 83% ft shooter coughs up 2 misses in the clutch?  Ol boy picked a bad time to do the cinnamon challenge. 

Once the refs stopped calling their push offs, they had no plan B on offense.  Thusly, they dribbled out the clock on multiple possessions and only ended up with panic fadeaways. 

 Oh you mean a Bazemore?  He patented those a few years ago.

 You can kiss my a**, Bawb 

Edited March 26 by kg01

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

How do we get Trae and DJ as a fit on defense? I'm not sure that's going to be possible. At the very least having Trae out is giving management a look at what a post-Trae Hawks team might look like, so it is providing a new perspective. 

Their offensive fit is not the problem anymore. It's their defensive fit.

Elite offense maybe. It has to be something on that end.

Edited March 26 by NBASupes

[hawkman]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Here's how I see it. I can win a title with Trae if I got the right pieces that fit Trae. 

I know I can't with Murray unless he's just one of the right pieces. Because of that, Murray is a lot more open than Trae is. Sure, give me Devin Booker but otherwise, naw. I really want Ant Man. 

You build with a guy like DJ, but you build around Trae. The Hawks did it in '20-'21 and the results were immediate. The Hawks were not a super team by any means. Heck, the guys they put around him weren't even All Stars. There's no reason that can't be duplicated. For some reason, management completely abandoned what worked. 

[Gray Mule]

Someone, a Hawk, was missing and no one seemed to notice.  Capela and Bruno handled the position well.  

Quietly, those "Trade Hunter now" posts have faded away.  Squawk posters are seeing now what we would have lost and that doesn't paint a pretty picture, does it.

Hawk University, open and doing well.  It takes a while.  Not all drafted players are ready to contribute big minutes in the NBA.  In baseball we see only a few players who go directly to the majors.  Minor League first.  Now, NBA players can mature some in the G League.  I think this is a great thing.  College seniors are much more mature and league-ready than one-and-done players.

This season has at least one great win and it happened last night!!

[bleachkit]

4 minutes ago, hawkman said:

You build with a guy like DJ, but you build around Trae. The Hawks did it in '20-'21 and the results were immediate. The Hawks were not a super team by any means. Heck, the guys they put around him weren't even All Stars. There's no reason that can't be duplicated. For some reason, management completely abandoned what worked. 

That's kind of my argument. Maybe DJ isn't quite as good as Trae, but maybe he's not as limiting either. It seems like getting the fit right around Trae isn't easy. We need a certain type of center, a certain type of wing, etc. I'm not just not sure Trae is worth that type of all encompassing roster construction where every decision has him in mind. If the right Trae trade is out there, and that's a big if of course, I would strongly consider it. 

[Atlantaholic]

8 minutes ago, hawkman said:

You build with a guy like DJ, but you build around Trae. The Hawks did it in '20-'21 and the results were immediate. The Hawks were not a super team by any means. Heck, the guys they put around him weren't even All Stars. There's no reason that can't be duplicated. For some reason, management completely abandoned what worked. 

We flipped core pieces for future picks and TPEs, Clint has regressed massively, Gallo got old. The emergence of JJ, Hunter figuring things out, and maybe Vit becoming something is the light at the end of the tunnel. If we want to roll with Trae and Murray (or have no choice) then I think our biggest hole atm is the C spot with Clint just not being good enough anymore. We need a defensive anchor, and OO just is too small. 

Just now, bleachkit said:

That's kind of my argument. Maybe DJ isn't quite as good as Trae, but maybe he's not as limiting either. It seems like getting the fit right around Trae isn't easy. We need a certain type of center, a certain type of wing, etc. I'm not just not sure Trae is worth that type of all encompassing roster construction where every decision has him in mind. If the right Trae trade is out there, and that's a big if of course, I would strongly consider it. 

It's easier to get specific top level role players than a superstar, which is what you are going to need to pair DJM with to ever make a run. 

[aali34]

1 minute ago, hawkman said:

You build with a guy like DJ, but you build around Trae. The Hawks did it in '20-'21 and the results were immediate. The Hawks were not a super team by any means. Heck, the guys they put around him weren't even All Stars. There's no reason that can't be duplicated. For some reason, management completely abandoned what worked. 

The Miami series made them overreact. They went for a second ball handler at the gaurd spot but didn't account for the lack of playmaking in the front court. JC, CC, and Hunter(at the time) aren't able to make reads or handle the ball and teams were front loading Trae heavily and his teamates weren't able to make them pay for that. 

The issue was also that the guard they got isn't someone who can play off of Trae. Murray likes to get to his own offense, he's not a spotup type gaurd(think of the CJ McCollum and Dame pairing on offense).

They also didn't account for Trae being as bad as he's been off the ball himself. DJ doesn't collapse defenses that well either so Trae doesn't get the kind of looks that everyone else gets when he has the ball(hopefully Jalen can change this).

If they knew what they had in JJ and Quin was already on the team, they may have not went in for DJ.

[macdaddy]

35 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Trae went out exactly when they started letting dudes play defense and not calling everything a foul.  His whistle would have dried up significantly, probably having a big impact on his production and efficiency scoring.

If you're going to make this case you also have to admit that our big improvement in defense is more to do with this change than Trae being off the court.   

They changed the rules of the game to stop Trae going to the line 2 years ago.  It didn't impact his production.  

[hawkman]

10 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

That's kind of my argument. Maybe DJ isn't quite as good as Trae, but maybe he's not as limiting either. It seems like getting the fit right around Trae isn't easy. We need a certain type of center, a certain type of wing, etc. I'm not just not sure Trae is worth that type of all encompassing roster construction where every decision has him in mind. If the right Trae trade is out there, and that's a big if of course, I would strongly consider it. 

So, we have a player on the roster that can take this team to the Finals with the right pieces around him, but it's not worth it because that player happens to be Trae Young???  What? The Hawks were a Trae ankle injury away from being in the Finals. Milwaukee had no answer for him, and the Suns certainly would have had no answer for him.

[hylndr11]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Good discussions on both sides. Good posting

Thanks Dad

[bleachkit]

15 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

We flipped core pieces for future picks and TPEs, Clint has regressed massively, Gallo got old. The emergence of JJ, Hunter figuring things out, and maybe Vit becoming something is the light at the end of the tunnel. If we want to roll with Trae and Murray (or have no choice) then I think our biggest hole atm is the C spot with Clint just not being good enough anymore. We need a defensive anchor, and OO just is too small. 

It's easier to get specific top level role players than a superstar, which is what you are going to need to pair DJM with to ever make a run. 

You think Trae and top level players gets it done? That's a tough sell for me. 

[bleachkit]

7 minutes ago, hawkman said:

So, we have a player on the roster that can take this team to the Finals with the right pieces around him, but it's not worth it because that player happens to be Trae Young???  What? The Hawks were a Trae ankle injury away from being in the Finals. Milwaukee had no answer for him, and the Suns certainly would have had no answer for him.

Ok you want make Trae the center of the universe and every decision is first and foremost, what does this player do for Trae? Ok go right ahead. To me that's not worth it. Im willing to bet the overwhelming majority of NBA general managers would think that's not worth it either. 

Edited March 26 by bleachkit

[Atlantaholic]

23 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

You think Trae and top level players gets it done? That's a tough sell for me. 

I mean the one time he played with an elite defensive center we were pretty close. 

 

17 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Ok you want make Trae the center of the universe and every decision is first and foremost, what does this player do for Trae? Ok go right ahead. To me that's not worth it. Im willing to bet the overwhelming majority of NBA general managers would think that's not worth it either. 

You built around your superstar, every team does this. What you don't do is trade three picks to get an All-Star-level player that plays the exact same position as your current superstar player. That move was 100% a gamble on that Murray could provide similar value at the 2 than at the 1 and that has been proven so far to categorically not be the case. You can't blame Trae for that, that's on the front office. There is a huge gap between the talent level of our top 2 guys and the rest of the team, but sadly the top 2 guys value drops when they have to share the floor. That, along with lack of depth + a lot of injuries, is why the team is "underachieving" relative to their perceived talent level.

I will add, to built a winner you need to be absolutely elite at least on one end of the floor. Trae has shown he can consistently lead elite offenses even with very little in terms of supporting casts. He is a no doubt about it top 5-10 offensive player in the NBA, he was consistently top 3 before the DJM pairing. There is a literal handful of guys in the entire NBA you can replace Trae with, the same is not true for Murray. 

[terrell]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

The issue may not be whether or not Murray is as good as Trae (he isn't), but if the additional value we get back from a Trae trade makes it worth trading him over Murray. If Murray's market doesn't heat up from what it was at the deadline (Reaves seemed like the apex return) then it could make sense to trade Trae if we can get a legit All-Star player back.

 

 

 

This...... Everyone knows Trae is more talented offensively than Murray.. Its all about what will make the TEAM better....

Edited March 26 by terrell

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

It's easier to get specific top level role players than a superstar, which is what you are going to need to pair DJM with to ever make a run. 

26 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

You built around your superstar, every team does this. 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I really hope Murray goes to a team he can help and still be one of the main guys 

What? Wait why can’t we make it work? Look there are ups and down in basketball like in life. Take Horford last night for example, he looked like his usual rebounding self… scared isn’t afraid to admit it, sphincter all tightened up.. 

 

JUST LOOK CLINT CLOWNED THAT SORRY DOUCHE! 
 

Go Hawks!

[bleachkit]

People focus so much on Trae's upside, they ignore his downside. 

[macdaddy]

Re-watched the second half.  Refs must hate Tatum with all the whining and complaining he does.  

Great win.  We're getting some inspired play by some guys.  Great to see. 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

If you're going to make this case you also have to admit that our big improvement in defense is more to do with this change than Trae being off the court.   

They changed the rules of the game to stop Trae going to the line 2 years ago.  It didn't impact his production.  

I do think a big reason our defense has improved is the rule enforcement changes, but I also think DJ is a much better defender at PG... so it's really both.

What we've been able to accomplish on offense without Trae has been impressive to say the least -- feels like Quin's system is starting to take hold.