Trae Young - The Man, The Viper, and The Prosecution aka The MVP aka Ice Trae

[NBASupes]

Just now, marco102 said:

No, all I'm saying is you said Joel's defense was generational and that ain't it chief.  He has great moments, but when he gets tired his defense nor offense isn't the same.  When he's engaged and not tired it's surprising some of the plays he makes, but that's not consistently throughout the game is all I'm saying. I didn't shit on Embiid in anyway form or fashion. I just said in my opinion Trae has had a bigger impact on the series.  That's not just offensively, but look at Trae's leadership. That's something you aren't talking about. Trae hasn't yelled at his team or pouted like Embiid.  And yes we all know Embiid is a better defender.  My opinion is my opinion.  I mean you think Embiid has been way better.  I'm fine with that. I think Trae has matched him and there isn't a huge gulf through 6 games. 

Embiid in the first three games was hands down far and away the best player in the series.  The last three in my opinion he hasn't been which allowed Trae to match him. 

I said he's a generational talent because he is. I didn't say he's a generational defender but he is elite defender for sure. Generational, no. 

He's generally always making an impact defensively. I don't know what else you want. 

I disagree, you did honestly. You shitted on him. No need for that. 

Trae is a better leader than Embiid by a mile. Who's saying otherwise? Embiid isn't a leader. He's just a baller with generational talent who's a funny personality but he's not a leader. He has a similar personality the likes of Shaq and Charles. Neither of them were leaders of any type. 

A better defender is an understatement considering we are talking above overall impact. 

I think he's been the best player in this series period and by a clear margin. We literally just got Trae's best individual offensive effort last night and lost. If we are going to win, it's going to be a team effort with Trae playing a key role in that but if there is someone that can beat the other team by himself, it's Jojo at this stage of his career. No shame in that. He's a top 3 player in this league. Hopefully Trae will get there soon and he will have the same effect on a game. 

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I said he's a generational talent because he is. I didn't say he's a generational defender but he is elite defender for sure. Generational, no. 

He's generally always making an impact defensively. I don't know what else you want. 

I disagree, you did honestly. You shitted on him. No need for that. 

Trae is a better leader than Embiid by a mile. Who's saying otherwise? Embiid isn't a leader. He's just a baller with generational talent who's a funny personality but he's not a leader. He has a similar personality the likes of Shaq and Charles. Neither of them were leaders of any type. 

A better defender is an understatement considering we are talking above overall impact. 

I think he's been the best player in this series period and by a clear margin. We literally just got Trae's best individual offensive effort last night and lost. If we are going to win, it's going to be a team effort with Trae playing a key role in that but if there is someone that can beat the other team by himself, it's Jojo at this stage of his career. No shame in that. He's a top 3 player in this league. Hopefully Trae will get there soon and he will have the same effect on a game. 

Show me where I shit on Embiid? By saying I think Trae has had a better impact on the series? I didn't say Embiid was crappy, what I did say is if he was so generational his offense and defensive impact would have stopped the Hawks comeback.  Embiid scares the crap out of me if he can hold up the entire game.  I just don't think he has the stamina to do that.  If he does in Game 7, hats off to him.  

Also, the Hawks have won 2 out of the 3 best individual games by Embiid. If that's the argument we are making here.

[marco102]

@NBASupes if we are talking who is the better player right now. Yes, it's Embiid. I'm talking about who is currently playing better.  There's a difference.

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, marco102 said:

@NBASupes if we are talking who is the better player right now. Yes, it's Embiid. I'm talking about who is currently playing better.  There's a difference.

Who's better right now and who's playing better in the series has the same answer. That still doesn't change the fact that we can win game 7 and I believe we will.

[RedDawg#8]

Here's some semantics for y'all,

Trae has been the BEST player this series, but Embiid has easily been the most DOMINANT.

I believe this to be a true statement 

Here is why, Trae has faced a tougher road vs their defense than Embiid has versus ours. They have multiple defenders to throw at Trae and we have NO ONE to slow Embiid. Embiid has made all of his production look effortless due to the lack of resistance. And his physical imposition is felt on both ends of the floor.

Trae has been met with a ton of resistance from Philly. Due to his stature he has faced bigger, stronger, and longer defenders everywhere he has looked. Embiid has not seen a defender that he doesn't tower over.

Trae has been able to affect the game whether he can score or not, and its been rare that he hasn't been able to score. But his BBIQ and ability to improvise on the fly have allowed him to be a step ahead of his opposition. He is running a basketball 101 clinic on offense while also making effort plays on defense to help his team. Up or down, Trae has been able to lead his team and keep them energized. Embiid's leadership is not in the same class as Trae. He can be taken out of the game mentally and emotionally and you see his body language become contagious amongst his teammates. I think the word is Heart.

Hypothetically speaking, if Joel had to go against the same resistance as Trae has, I believe he would crumble to pieces. That is why Trae has been the best player in my eyes. He has fought and fought, adjusted and adapted and come back stronger. Embiid has had the physical advantage all series and dominated while engaged, but too often has faded and let his team down. All of that matters.

Trae = Best, Embiid = Most Dominant

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Trae is a better leader than Embiid by a mile. Who's saying otherwise? Embiid isn't a leader. He's just a baller with generational talent who's a funny personality but he's not a leader. He has a similar personality the likes of Shaq and Charles. Neither of them were leaders of any type. 

 

Spot on.  And I'm hoping that this will be the difference in the game, once the 4th quarter hits.

[ATLHawks3]

https://watch.nba.com/video/20210620gametime-rayyoungintv

 

Cool interview with Trae's dad on NBA TV.

[sturt]

 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

 

Facts!

23 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Spot on.  And I'm hoping that this will be the difference in the game, once the 4th quarter hits.

As game 7 just proved. WeMove

[sturt]

 

[EazyRoc]

So I surfed social media after the game and strangely enough the Trae vs. Luka narrative hasn’t changed one bit. However, with all this news coming out, it’s a shocking twist that Luka may actually be a toxic star that puts up numbers but doesn’t make his team better. I think it’s so underrated that Trae has a very close relationship with his Dad to keep him focused and grounded.

[Thomas]

Trae still making that history change everyday. So nobody has matched this playoff stat. Man aliv Trae.

Young also now has 12 consecutive games with at least 20 points and seven assists, the longest such streak in NBA postseason history.

[kg01]

What player wouldn't want to play with this guy?  Not selfish, a definite team guy.  Not showing up the coach.  Is a culture-setter, not a culture-killer.

My guy Tim Legler, said Trae is definitely "that guy".  Opined aboutu guys he could see as good pairings with him to get ATL to the next level.  Cited Zion as a great match, especially considering things are rocky in NO.  Folks know I'm not the biggest Zion fan.  I do think he'd be better playing with Trae though.

[aali34]

 

[JCDBaptist]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

 

Is it possible to get this as a poster or do I have to settle for a screenshot?

[aali34]

1 minute ago, JCDBaptist said:

Is it possible to get this as a poster or do I have to settle for a screenshot?

I don't know, I didn't make it. There might be online resources that can convert images into posters though.

Also if you want to save it to your personal computer,

• Right click and select open image in new tab(this should give the most HD resolution)
• Right click the opened image and select Save Image As...

 

[JCDBaptist]

13 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I don't know, I didn't make it. There might be online resources that can convert images into posters though.

Also if you want to save it to your personal computer,

• Right click and select open image in new tab(this should give the most HD resolution)
• Right click the opened image and select Save Image As...

 

Thanks my dude.

[RandomFan]

Trimmed out some of the conversation involving only Booker. 

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/31683232/nba-playoffs-2021-devin-booker-trae-young-empty-stats-fallacy

Quote

 

Kevin Pelton

ESPN Senior Writer

As Devin Booker and Trae Young lead their respective teams in the 2021 NBA conference finals, it's time to retire the phrase "good stats, bad team."

Both Booker and Young were tagged with the unflattering label early in their careers, when they accumulated impressive per-game statistics for lottery-bound teams. The notion might even have helped keep Young off this year's All-Star team when the Atlanta Hawks started the season 13-18 while dealing with injuries to key starters prior to the announcement of reserves. (The Hawks went a mere 28-13 the rest of the way.)

Now, with Young powering Atlanta's pair of upset series wins as a lower seed, and Booker carrying the Phoenix Suns to a lead in the Western Conference finals -- without star guard Chris Paul -- heading into Tuesday's Game 2 (9 p.m. ET on ESPN), we should learn from their examples and forget about a concept that always made more sense in theory than practice.

The clumsy relationship between individual and team success

I can understand where the concept of "good stats, bad team" originated. Back when players were evaluated primarily based on their per-game statistics, and specifically points per game, it was easy to confuse volume scoring for performance that translated into winning.

Without the evaluation framework provided by advanced stats, team record was a shortcut to telling the imposters from the genuine article.

Consider the group of nearly 1,000 players since individual turnovers were first tracked in 1977-78 to average at least 20 points per game while playing at least two-thirds of their team's games. Of these, a little more than a third came from teams with below-.500 records. The conventional wisdom is right, to an extent. There is a relationship between the record of a high scorer's team and his own performance, as measured by my player net rating on a per-possession basis.

On average, my net rating for players on teams that finished .500 or better (plus-4.5 points per 100 possessions) is more than twice as good as for those on below-.500 teams (plus-2.1). Yet individual performance for a high scorer still explains only about 20% of the variation in team record.

Essentially, judging a player's ability by his team's performance is a blunt measure. Modern statistical analysis gives us more surgical tools that can better separate individual performance. And though those tools indicate that most high scorers on lottery teams are in fact less valuable than those on playoff ones, that's not always the case.

After all, there are four other players on the court at all times, not counting minutes a player is on the bench. So it is that the lowest-rated player by my metric in this group of 20-point scorers (Jeff Malone with the 1991-92 Utah Jazz) could play on a team that went 55-27 and reached the conference finals thanks to stars Karl Malone and John Stockton.

At the other extreme, Anthony Davis' 2018-19 performance ranked in the top 25 of this group, highest for any player on a below-.500 team. (Admittedly, Davis played sparingly after publicly requesting a trade, but that happened only after the New Orleans Pelicans fell out of the playoff race.) A year later, after Davis was traded to the Los Angeles Lakers, he helped them win the championship. Turns out he definitely wasn't an example of "good stats, bad team."

Better support surrounds Booker and Young

It didn't require requesting a trade for Booker and Young to be put in better position to succeed. Their own teams managed that by eventually parlaying a series of lottery picks into a core of young talent and making skillful additions to those pieces through trades and free agency.

Weighted by minutes played, the Hawks have the third-youngest rotation among playoff teams, while the Suns are sixth youngest. That stands in sharp contrast to their opponents in the conference finals, the Milwaukee Bucks (third oldest) and LA Clippers (oldest). In addition to Young, Atlanta's core includes recent first-round picks John Collins, Kevin Huerter and the injured De'Andre Hunter, while Phoenix boasts a pair of third-year starters in No. 1 overall pick Deandre Ayton and Mikal Bridges.

To those groups, both teams made key pickups last offseason. The Hawks weaponized their cap space to add starter Bogdan Bogdanovic and top reserve Danilo Gallinari, having already added Clint Capela in the trade at the 2020 trade deadline.

Because of the newcomers, both Booker and Young saw their scoring averages decline this season. Young's drop-off of 4.3 PPG is particularly notable. Young was one of 28 players in the league to see his scoring decline so dramatically at an age where most players' stats are on the rise. That happened in part because Atlanta's pace slowed dramatically, but Young's assist rate also increased 10% on a per-possession basis while his usage went down. It's no surprise Young was more willing to trust a better set of teammates.

How both stars have developed their games

Although the change in outlook for the Hawks and Suns has more to do with the quality of their rosters, they've also benefited from the inevitable improvement of Young (age 22) and Booker (24). That's been particularly evident on defense, a more legitimate critique of both players earlier in their careers.

During 2019-20, Young's minus-1.8 defensive RAPM (regularized adjusted plus-minus via NBAshotcharts.com) ranked in the league's bottom 10 when accounting for the teammates and opponents who were on the court with him. At minus-1.3, Booker was also in the bottom 25. While defense remains a weakness, both Booker (minus-0.7) and Young (minus-0.9) have improved out of that range.

In Young's case, playmaking has stepped to the forefront. He's assisted on nearly half his teammates' field goals while on the court in the playoffs, per Basketball-Reference.com data, the highest estimated rate in a run of more than 10 games since Russell Westbrook in 2016. According to Stathead.com, Young is on track to join Westbrook (twice), James Harden, LeBron James (four times) and John Wall as the fifth player since 1977-78 with an assist rate higher than 40% and a usage rate higher than 30% in the same playoffs.

At this point, Booker and Young have more than proved their statistical output can translate into team success. For the next generation of similar players, we shouldn't wait for this kind of playoff run to evaluate individual performances on their own merits rather than by their teams' records.

Let's stop using the phrase "good stats, bad team" and instead use stats that better reflect contributions to winning than points per game.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by RandomFan

[RandomFan]

Any fans that think this is gonna do anything to slow down Trae are in for a rude awakening. 

[Spud2nique]

Kendrick strikes again!