Official Game Thread: Hawks at Celtics

[hylndr11]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

We've seen plenty of evidence that this isn't true.  In fact, Bogi didn't have a problem last night.   Bogi/Kev were excellent for us last year and in the playoffs.   These guys are playing with no confidence and avoiding taking it to the rim.   Fadeaways and bad shots.  You can't pin all that crap on Trae. 

Right, but what is trying to be shown is that teams did not defend us as well last year as they are this year, they have adjusted to this version of the hawks with these players around Trae, it worked for awhile, but hasn't been able to keep working as the league adjusts, I would even surmise this is another reason Travis said what the did on the radio, he knew teams would adjust and was taking a wait and see approach because of all the good will gained last season when his gut probably told him, he needed to keep making moves around Trae in this off-season as opposed to running it back 

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Huerter gets waaaayyyyyy too much slack from squawk. He needs to stop being a lil trick b and man the F up already. 
 

It’s not ok to let the burden fall on Trae man, DO SOMETHING HUERTER! 
 

Seriously, why does Huerter get a free pass from a lot of youse people? 

Why? 

Same post but insert "Hunter" in mine.

Come at me brosephines ....

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

No we haven't. That's why I continue to bark about it. 

Bogi and Kev wasn't excellent in the playoffs last year. They were maddeningly inconsistent. They had some good games but they had a lot of clunkers too. 

That 2nd half shit shouldn't even count. They got quality touches especially Bogi due to that 1/5 PnR destroying defeisnve schemes last year. Teams were scrambling in March and couldn't adjust no matter who was the wings for Atlanta. They did start to figure it out to a degree in April and we had a freebie schedule in May. In the playoffs, that 1/5 PnR wasn't all that effective and I worried about that coming into the year but looked passed it when I shouldn't have. 

Trae gets the accolades of the efficiency of the offense. Being a generational offensive engine and offensive machine. You can't give him all of the love and not address the downside. 

Fans on here want others to play like it's a video game and that's not realistic.

I'm not giving Trae all the accolades at all.  He didn't have a very good game but I don't see how you can make the case that most of the rest of the team was far worse.   Hunter is starting to take heat for not playing well.  I'm not sure why Kev continues to get a pass for being so passive.  And if he no looks one more pass straight to the other team then I'd like a ban on anyone calling him a 'good passer' again.   

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not giving Trae all the accolades at all.  He didn't have a very good game but I don't see how you can make the case that most of the rest of the team was far worse.   Hunter is starting to take heat for not playing well.  I'm not sure why Kev continues to get a pass for being so passive.  And if he no looks one more pass straight to the other team then I'd like a ban on anyone calling him a 'good passer' again.   

I am not talking about just this game. I am evaluating him on a season basis. 

That's Kev personality type. 

[Diesel]

When you come to the squawk.. you can expect the sacred cows....

People are afraid to call a thing and thing...

Last night, there was no JC so JC couldn't be the punching bag for the loss.   Had JC played, we probably would have won.    

So what was the problem.  Defense.

I also have my problem with how the game was reffed... but let's talk about Defense shall we..

1.  Trae gets no props for his defensive effort yesterday??  He was actually playing it.

The problems were 

1.  The corner three.

2.  The walk down the middle. 

3.  The inside.

Before Boston started hammering us with the corner three, our main problem came with dribble drive penetration.   Before you go blaming Clint... Clint was helping everybody manage the corner three.  I saw Clint step out a lot to hold the corner three man until a wing would get there to pick them up. 

It's the switching in our defense that gives the biggest problem.   OO does it too.   The culprit behind this need to switch is Our wings.

Our wings are not attentive on defense. 

Huerter...  Ball watches.   I actually saw Huerter in the low post allowing somebody to just get an easy layup... standing right there.  

Bogi...   Can't see the backside cut forming. 

Hunter....  He's good on man but in a zone, he seems lost. 

We need to stop the zone defense.  We need to play man on man.  Period.  Yes, Trae may get beat.   Yes Huerter will get beat.  However, we won't be giving up wide open three pointers.   If we allow CC or OO to stay home, we can bring an end to the easy shots. 

I've seen Nate talk about Shell Drill and defense.   Why don't we practice this:

 

[Mikey]

46 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya but you weren’t even here back then were you? 

Not on here but its draped all over my twitter lol

[h4wkfan]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

When you come to the squawk.. you can expect the sacred cows....

People are afraid to call a thing and thing...

Last night, there was no JC so JC couldn't be the punching bag for the loss.   Had JC played, we probably would have won.    

So what was the problem.  Defense.

I also have my problem with how the game was reffed... but let's talk about Defense shall we..

1.  Trae gets no props for his defensive effort yesterday??  He was actually playing it.

The problems were 

1.  The corner three.

2.  The walk down the middle. 

3.  The inside.

Before Boston started hammering us with the corner three, our main problem came with dribble drive penetration.   Before you go blaming Clint... Clint was helping everybody manage the corner three.  I saw Clint step out a lot to hold the corner three man until a wing would get there to pick them up. 

It's the switching in our defense that gives the biggest problem.   OO does it too.   The culprit behind this need to switch is Our wings.

Our wings are not attentive on defense. 

Huerter...  Ball watches.   I actually saw Huerter in the low post allowing somebody to just get an easy layup... standing right there.  

Bogi...   Can't see the backside cut forming. 

Hunter....  He's good on man but in a zone, he seems lost. 

We need to stop the zone defense.  We need to play man on man.  Period.  Yes, Trae may get beat.   Yes Huerter will get beat.  However, we won't be giving up wide open three pointers.   If we allow CC or OO to stay home, we can bring an end to the easy shots. 

I've seen Nate talk about Shell Drill and defense.   Why don't we practice this:

 

I disagree on the defense being the issue this game. It was the offense that lost this one.
 

secondary was Hunter getting those quick calls in the 3rd allowing jayson to get into a rhythm when we had nobody else that could defend him. Still only giving up 105 against a streaking Celtics should be good enough. Not so when we score 40 second half points. 
 

on a macro level Across the season defense is a problem. I don’t understand why we have a habit of everyone collapsing on defense leaving the corners wide open. 

[macdaddy]

Just now, h4wkfan said:

I disagree on the defense being the issue this game. It was the offense that lost this one.
 

secondary was Hunter getting those quick calls in the 3rd allowing jayson to get into a rhythm when we had nobody else that could defend him. Still only giving up 105 against a streaking Celtics should be good enough. Not so when we score 40 second half points. 
 

on a macro level Across the season defense is a problem. I don’t understand why we have a habit of everyone collapsing on defense leaving the corners wide open. 

I know it's not the conventional wisdom but our defense becomes a problem when we start sucking on offense.  We too easy go in to sulk mode vs bear down mode.   

[REHawksFan]

31 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No we haven't. That's why I continue to bark about it. 

Bogi and Kev wasn't excellent in the playoffs last year. They were maddeningly inconsistent. They had some good games but they had a lot of clunkers too. 

That 2nd half shit shouldn't even count. They got quality touches especially Bogi due to that 1/5 PnR destroying defeisnve schemes last year. Teams were scrambling in March and couldn't adjust no matter who was the wings for Atlanta. They did start to figure it out to a degree in April and we had a freebie schedule in May. In the playoffs, that 1/5 PnR wasn't all that effective and I worried about that coming into the year but looked passed it when I shouldn't have. 

Trae gets the accolades of the efficiency of the offense. Being a generational offensive engine and offensive machine. You can't give him all of the love and not address the downside. 

Fans on here want others to play like it's a video game and that's not realistic.

If I buy your premise that Trae is driving the wing issue (still not sure I do) then explain why you are so definitive that he can't adapt and run more action that gets the wings involved more.  Trae is an offensive genius and you are acting like "it is what it is" as if Year 4 Trae is all there will ever be.  Players evolve. Players learn and develop. You are acting like this version of Trae that you are critical of (in regards to the wing production) is the only thing Trae is capable of. I just don't buy that. 

I'm aware of what happened last year with LP but that was a different deal.  Trae wants to win. I have to believe winning is more important that "doing it his way, period."  So if it helps the team for him to include the wings more and be more diverse, I just don't get and / or buy the notion that Trae can't or won't get the wings involved.  To what end and to what purpose does that serve??  It's not logical. 

 

[Diesel]

Just now, h4wkfan said:

I disagree on the defense being the issue this game. It was the offense that lost this one.
 

secondary was Hunter getting those quick calls in the 3rd allowing jayson to get into a rhythm when we had nobody else that could defend him. Still only giving up 105 against a streaking Celtics should be good enough. Not so when we score 40 second half points. 
 

on a macro level Across the season defense is a problem. I don’t understand why we have a habit of everyone collapsing on defense leaving the corners wide open. 

We just have to disagree. 

But let me explain my reasoning.

In Quarter #3, they outscored us 42 to 23.   In our previous 2 quarters, we had scored 28 amd 27 respectively.   So while we were down maybe +4 from what we had been scoring,  Boston took a +14 Jump from their second quarter scoring of 28 pts.   In the third, Boston shot 72.2% from the floor and 71.4% from three on 5 made three pointers.    In that same quarter, we scored 43.5% from the floor and 30% from three one 3 made three pointers.  That's not that bad because at the Half we had scored 37.8% from the floor and 40.9% from three on 9 made threes.   So our offense wasn't that bad, our defense was atrocious. 

The refs helped Boston.  Boston also took 12 FTs during that quarter.   In the third quarter, we didn't go to  the FT line. 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

Do our coaches work with our players in basic basketball fundamentals? I’m just curious why our player development blows.

Anyone know the answer here? 
 

 

[REHawksFan]

11 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I know it's not the conventional wisdom but our defense becomes a problem when we start sucking on offense.  We too easy go in to sulk mode vs bear down mode.   

It's both / and imo.  

When they play solid defense, they get easy looks on offense and things run really really well.  As in, they look like a top 5 team in the NBA well. 

Conversely, when they are hitting their shots, the also sometimes give good effort on defense and play really really well.  

The problem, to me, has been that they all to often hit shots on offense and then think they can just slack off defensively but it doesn't work that way.  OR, as you say, when they aren't hitting shots they sulk and really suck defensively. 

Bottom line, if they don't play with effort on defense, it's a wrap unless they playing a team that sucks and they can just outscore. 

But if they play with defensive effort, they can get easy offense that can jumpstart a bad shooting night.  

[Diesel]

The referees just gave a clinic on how to fix the game for a team and we're sitting here blaming Trae?

 

At the Half....

Boston has a total of 10 FT attempts

We have a total of 12 FT attempts. 

Boston has committed 9 PFs

We have committed 8 PFs.

 

It was said going into the half that Smart and Williams were talking to the refs about fouls...

3rd Qtr...

Boston goes to the FT line 12 times. 

Atlanta goes to the FT line 0 times. 

Boston commits  3 Pfs.

We commits 10 PFs. 

4th Qtr....

Boston gets 5 FT attempts. 

We get 3 FT attempts.

 

In the third Qtr, Boston goes to the free throw line and get more PFs on us than they had in all of the first half.  Let that sink in....  They went to the FT line 12 times... We went NONE.

Yeah.. we have some issues and problems on the offensive and defensive ends.  There are definitely some things that can be done better...

BUT  IF you guys can't see the influence of the officiating on the outcome of this game YOU ARE BLIND!!!  Or you just have a Narrative that you gotta Push...

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

If I buy your premise that Trae is driving the wing issue (still not sure I do) then explain why you are so definitive that he can't adapt and run more action that gets the wings involved more.  Trae is an offensive genius and you are acting like "it is what it is" as if Year 4 Trae is all there will ever be.  Players evolve. Players learn and develop. You are acting like this version of Trae that you are critical of (in regards to the wing production) is the only thing Trae is capable of. I just don't buy that. 

I'm aware of what happened last year with LP but that was a different deal.  Trae wants to win. I have to believe winning is more important that "doing it his way, period."  So if it helps the team for him to include the wings more and be more diverse, I just don't get and / or buy the notion that Trae can't or won't get the wings involved.  To what end and to what purpose does that serve??  It's not logical. 

 

We could but at what cost to efficiency. We know what this personnel group is. Below average on offense and above average on defense without Trae. Who in their right mind will run .80 - .88 PPP when you can use Trae for 1.04 or better. Simply math

LP used to do that and we had the 20-25 best offense in the league. 

[h4wkfan]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We just have to disagree. 

But let me explain my reasoning.

In Quarter #3, they outscored us 42 to 23.   In our previous 2 quarters, we had scored 28 amd 27 respectively.   So while we were down maybe +4 from what we had been scoring,  Boston took a +14 Jump from their second quarter scoring of 28 pts.   In the third, Boston shot 72.2% from the floor and 71.4% from three on 5 made three pointers.    In that same quarter, we scored 43.5% from the floor and 30% from three one 3 made three pointers.  That's not that bad because at the Half we had scored 37.8% from the floor and 40.9% from three on 9 made threes.   So our offense wasn't that bad, our defense was atrocious. 

The refs helped Boston.  Boston also took 12 FTs during that quarter.   In the third quarter, we didn't go to  the FT line. 

 

 

And we then gave up 18 in the 4th. Scoring 17. And lost by 10. Putting up just 50 in the second half sends us to overtime even with Tatum going off and trae struggling. 

[warcore]

17 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

One thing is becoming very evident.  OO might be better than Capela right now.  And if that's the case, maybe it's Capela that needs to come off the bench.  That would completely disrupt the chemistry of the team though. 

Bad idea because that would raise questions marks and lower Capela's trade value. We have to turn him into Ayton this offseason. Be patient, young grasshopper. 

[Diesel]

Just now, h4wkfan said:

And we then gave up 18 in the 4th. Scoring 17. And lost by 10. Putting up just 50 in the second half sends us to overtime even with Tatum going off and trae struggling. 

The game was lost in the 3rd... when they went up by 10.   IN the 4th, we were all tied down, foul trouble on our main defenders.   Boston still allowed to perform moving screens.   In the 4th BB shooting had cooled off and so did both teams.  FG%  Atlanta - 28%.  Boston - 27%.

There's nothing important to see in the fourth.. We were mortally wounded in the third. 

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We could but at what cost to efficiency. We know what this personnel group is. Below average on offense and above average on defense without Trae. Who in their right mind will run .80 - .88 PPP when you can use Trae for 1.04 or better. Simply math

LP used to do that and we had the 20-25 best offense in the league. 

So the answer is to maintain the high efficiency of "spamming" (as you say) the 1/5 and 1/4 while also upgrading on the wing to players that don't need the ball but can still score at a high rate?  All that sounds good, but if sharp shooters aren't available, you have to go with what you got.  The Hawks are still a Top 5 offense as is, right?  So how much better can they get with better or different wings?
 

The issue is defensively, they all too often give little to no effort and miss assignments routinely. 

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

So the answer is to maintain the high efficiency of "spamming" (as you say) the 1/5 and 1/4 while also upgrading on the wing to players that don't need the ball but can still score at a high rate?  All that sounds good, but if sharp shooters aren't available, you have to go with what you got.  The Hawks are still a Top 5 offense as is, right?  So how much better can they get with better or different wings?
 

The issue is defensively, they all too often give little to no effort and miss assignments routinely. 

Upgrading wings is very expensive and they have touches reqs.

Is the cost worth the lack of reward. Does them getting touching harms Trae's game?

They spam the 1/5 PnR mainly for Clint's screens. They smartly use the 1/4.

They could get better if that's what you are asking. Better players help but there is a give or take. 

They give a lot more effort than you guys give them credit for. I was just watching the game this morning and as usual, you guys underrated our wings D and overrated Trae WOAT in a league of his own D. I really don't know what many fans here are watching and I haven't in ages defensively. Offensively, I can see where you guys are coming from to a degree. 

Defensively, not at all. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

The referees just gave a clinic on how to fix the game for a team and we're sitting here blaming Trae?

 

At the Half....

Boston has a total of 10 FT attempts

We have a total of 12 FT attempts. 

Boston has committed 9 PFs

We have committed 8 PFs.

 

It was said going into the half that Smart and Williams were talking to the refs about fouls...

3rd Qtr...

Boston goes to the FT line 12 times. 

Atlanta goes to the FT line 0 times. 

Boston commits  3 Pfs.

We commits 10 PFs. 

4th Qtr....

Boston gets 5 FT attempts. 

We get 3 FT attempts.

 

In the third Qtr, Boston goes to the free throw line and get more PFs on us than they had in all of the first half.  Let that sink in....  They went to the FT line 12 times... We went NONE.

Yeah.. we have some issues and problems on the offensive and defensive ends.  There are definitely some things that can be done better...

BUT  IF you guys can't see the influence of the officiating on the outcome of this game YOU ARE BLIND!!!  Or you just have a Narrative that you gotta Push...