Official Game Thread: Hawks at Cavaliers

[terrell]

13 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yup won't overreact over one game... but on the flipside, it hasn't been one game. It's been 17 games and the Hawks will probably be ranking out of the top 15 in Orating on the year after tonight. Offense is a legitimate area of concern. There are too many lineups that are just completely devoid of production the majority of the time. 

DJM's game seems to have been sliding over the last several games. He came in slashing and dishing, and that has gradually devolved into over-dribbling for his own pull-up jumpers.  smdh

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

So, I don't just say stuff to be saying it...  I just make observations usually fueled by overthinking and over-analysis.  It doesn't always translate into the right context, but it's never a simple "X" is the problem for me.  Let's talk about the play first.

This is maybe a second before the "foul."  There is no contact.  John is straight up and if you watch it live, as I have about 20 times now, Cedi is leaning back to create the contact and he's about to use his forearm to shield himself from the defender:

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In the next still, John is going for the ball while Osman is raising his arm.  There is no lower body contact.

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In the final frame, Collins has ALL BALL in his left hand.  Bob suggests the same immediately after the play.

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It's difficult to tell if Collins knocks the ball out before they come together, chest to forearm.  It's really close from a different angle, but I've seen much more contact on blocked shots.  This is a good play by both Collins and Cedi.  They are step for step and it's incidental contact right at the basket.  Cleveland is not in the bonus and Cedi knows it so he starts lobbying for continuation.  There is contact, so the fair call is probably 2 shots for Cedi.  The better call is side out to Cleveland.

As far as the impact on the game...

This was a hard fought 4th quarter and we battled back from double digits with six minutes to go.  We had cut this to 6 with 2:15 on the clock.  The ensuing 5 point swing makes it a double-digit deficit with 2:05 left.  Barring precision execution and a complete Cleveland meltdown, the game is pretty much over on that play. 

I did not say this one play is the singular reason why we lost.  It was, however, anyone's game with manageable time on the clock.  A lot of times, analysts will say "this is anybody's game right now" for a reason.  The deciding factor tilting the odds for Cleveland in the closing moments was this play.  Or, as I actually said... despite the debacle (or IOW other major issue) in the first quarter, the game boiled down to that key play.

Other factors IMO, were DJM's off night, untimely shots by Trae, and Hunter being out.  All of these things obviously affected the outcome, but we had a legit shot at stealing a win up until that play.  Consequently, I am not bitter about the loss.

Not a cop out, just a key observation.

They are almost always going to call a foul on a fast break if there is contact. I disagree with the clear path ruling however. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

If you bring benhillbilly to the studio, I'm bringing stu.  

I see your Stu and I raise you a Terre… oh wait.. .. ok fine… you may have me at checkmate here.. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Spud2nique

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

I can’t take credit for them, it’s NBA Math Twitter.  It is a fantastic way to show a quick box snapshot of every player tho.  Look at where that boy Dre is:

 

Been saying Hunter always grades poorly in advanced stats.  I’m really close to believing he should have left instead of Huerter.  Do not believe Hunter is a top 12 SF.

 

[JeffS17]

13 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Gotta agree with Diesel

Trae is the only player that doesn't get open clean CnS 3s...this is AHol tonight, WIDE OPEN...1-4

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FG3A&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022200248&PlayerID=1628988&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

 

JHol

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FG3A&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022200248&PlayerID=1628988&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

 

Yeah, I guess I'm really referring to in the half court.  It really does not feel like we generate open looks in the half court at all, especially for Trae as you mentioned.  All but one of those AHoliday looks were created in transition, which is great, but doesn't make me feel good come playoff time when things tend to slow down.

I probably shouldn't have ranted after yesterdays game though because I missed the whole first half lol 

[Jody23]

The shooting issues continue.  Hopefully Bogi getting back will help, but it won't completely fix things.  You can't watch Gallo and Huerter go and not have realized shooting would be a concern.  It definitely makes things tougher for Trae and Dejounte.  Hopefully Collins getting back on track with more Griffin helps also.

[macdaddy]

23 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Been saying Hunter always grades poorly in advanced stats.  I’m really close to believing he should have left instead of Huerter.  Do not believe Hunter is a top 12 SF.

 

I'm frustrated with Hunter too but i'm not going to forget that Huerter was not that good last year.   I know his stats were fine but his total lack or any offensive game outside of shooting 3s and top of key fade aways really hurt us and were part of the reason that the Heat double teaming Trae the whole game worked. 

That said I wish we still have Kev coming off our bench. 

[terrell]

26 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Been saying Hunter always grades poorly in advanced stats.  I’m really close to believing he should have left instead of Huerter.  Do not believe Hunter is a top 12 SF.

 

Hunter is almost 6 years older than AJ.. Let that sink in...

[Sothron]

31 minutes ago, terrell said:

Hunter is almost 6 years older than AJ.. Let that sink in...

Its fairly obvious that AJ is going to get Hunter traded probably in the offseason. AJ is clearly the future at SF. We got PG and SG locked up. They can try and make AJ the sixth man but he is clearly outplaying Hunter. My only fear is that Travis is obsessed with Hunter and gave him his bag instead of making him work for it.

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

Its fairly obvious that AJ is going to get Hunter traded probably in the offseason. AJ is clearly the future at SF. We got PG and SG locked up. They can try and make AJ the sixth man but he is clearly outplaying Hunter. My only fear is that Travis is obsessed with Hunter and gave him his bag instead of making him work for it.

AJ has work to do to be as good defensively as Hunter and he's a little undersized at the 3.   I'm with you though that he seems to be more impactful on the offensive end. 

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Its fairly obvious that AJ is going to get Hunter traded probably in the offseason. AJ is clearly the future at SF. We got PG and SG locked up. They can try and make AJ the sixth man but he is clearly outplaying Hunter. My only fear is that Travis is obsessed with Hunter and gave him his bag instead of making him work for it.

You can have both for the next three years. Why make your team weaker?

AJ still has a ways to go on the defensive end, but his offense is excellent for a 19 year old. 

[Atlantaholic]

42 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm frustrated with Hunter too but i'm not going to forget that Huerter was not that good last year.   I know his stats were fine but his total lack or any offensive game outside of shooting 3s and top of key fade aways really hurt us and were part of the reason that the Heat double teaming Trae the whole game worked. 

That said I wish we still have Kev coming off our bench. 

Offensively Kev was fine. Problem is we often asked him to be our second go to guy and that's just not his strong suit offensively. His shot is streaky too, he's not going to keep on shooting 50% from the field, I can guarantee that. Defensively he was, and still is a liability. Still as a piece of the bench for us he would be a huge addition for us atm, and a massive step up from whatever production we get from the Hol bros. 

[Atlantaholic]

11 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Its fairly obvious that AJ is going to get Hunter traded probably in the offseason. AJ is clearly the future at SF. We got PG and SG locked up. They can try and make AJ the sixth man but he is clearly outplaying Hunter. My only fear is that Travis is obsessed with Hunter and gave him his bag instead of making him work for it.

Why did we even extend Hunter? What trade value will there be for him at his current top 10 SF contract. He isn't top 20. 

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

You can have both for the next three years. Why make your team weaker?

AJ still has a ways to go on the defensive end, but his offense is excellent for a 19 year old. 

Exactly. Didn't we just do this with Huerter? Sigh.

[Sothron]

7 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Why did we even extend Hunter? What trade value will there be for him at his current top 10 SF contract. He isn't top 20. 

The thinking was if Hunter had a big year he would get a huge RFA offer. Locking him up before the deadline means he is under team control and we don't run the risk of losing him. For Hunter he gets his money  and doesn't have to worry if another season where he clearly disappoints hurts his future contract. 

Personally I would have made him earn an extension and run the risk of a big RFA offer. I also would pay the LT for this team. But I am not Ressler who is fighting tooth and nail to avoid the LT for as long as possible.

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

They are almost always going to call a foul on a fast break if there is contact. I disagree with the clear path ruling however. 

I wouldn't argue that.  I did suggest as much by saying two shots for Cedi would have been a "fair" call.  However, John got the ball as Osman picked up his dribble.  So he was not in the act of shooting and they were not in the bonus.  IMO, side out to Cleveland would have been the right call. 

All bets are off if we're talking about how the NBA typically calls things...in which case, the call they made is par for the course.

[Sothron]

13 minutes ago, marco102 said:

You can have both for the next three years. Why make your team weaker?

AJ still has a ways to go on the defensive end, but his offense is excellent for a 19 year old. 

You don't waste three years of development and potential by having an inferior player start over a superior younger player. Hunter's skill set of being a good catch and shoot three point shooter and a good wing defender makes him easily tradable. But that's all Hunter offers. AJ is SIX YEARS younger and already has shown far more potential than Hunter ever has. 

 

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

You don't waste three years of development and potential by having an inferior player start over a superior younger player. Hunter's skill set of being a good catch and shoot three point shooter and a good wing defender makes him easily tradable. But that's all Hunter offers. AJ is SIX YEARS younger and already has shown far more potential than Hunter ever has. 

 

Did you not watch AJ get roasted on the perimeter last night?  You are not stopping AJ's development by giving him 16 to 28 minutes a night in his first two years in the league.  If he warrants starting over Hunter, then sure do it.  For me, it's best to have both on the team.

There is no viable replacement for Hunter yet.  

You describe Hunter like he's J Holiday.  How's that J. Holiday replacement working out for us? 

Edited November 22, 2022 by marco102

[macdaddy]

I don't think Hunter's contract is going to be that big of a problem even if he doesn't improve dramatically.  It's better than RJ Barrett's deal. 

[Sothron]

15 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Did you not watch AJ get roasted on the perimeter last night?  You are not stopping AJ's development by giving him 16 to 28 minutes a night in his first two years in the league.  If he warrants starting over Hunter, then sure do it.  For me, it's best to have both on the team.

There is no viable replacement for Hunter yet.  

You describe Hunter like he's J Holiday.  How's that J. Holiday replacement working out for us? 

I watched AJ get three or four steals in his first start at 19 which is more than Hunter has ever gotten in a game and he's SIX YEARS older. I am not saying they just throw Hunter to the wolves or give him away for free like they foolishly did with Kevin. 

I am saying it is clear that AJ, right now, is a better player than Hunter and is only getting better the longer the season goes. At the end of this season it should be obvious that he should start over Hunter. At that point you move Hunter for a 3&D player and first rounders. That way you replace the hole on the bench for AJ and AJ takes over at SF. 

And honestly I am describing Hunter as J Holiday because that's all he is. Hunter is literally just a 3&D wing player.