Official Game Thread: Hawks at Timberwolves

[bird_dirt]

13 hours ago, FL_BRYANT said:

Collins has to get in the weight room and get stronger. How does he live with getting muscled/bullied night after night.  Also it is up to our point guards to get him the ball all game especially if he is hot.

He tried that and got suspended for 25 games. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

You can definitely make the case the Dre is really, really good or not.  But the one thing i think we can agree on is he's not a clutch shooter.  I thought that was a bad play drawn up for a final shot.  

 

My thing is this.  All of us who have played basketball before, has simulated the game winning buzzer beating shot by counting down and shooting when our count gets to 1.  We've done this since we were kids.  But did Dre ever do that?

 

And in hindsight, why are we having one of our least decision makers throwing in the ball?  I would honestly trust Collins to throw in the ball to the right guy, than Dre.  He had both Bogi and Bey open to receive a pass.

But the shot . . smh. 

Like I said in the 1st paragraph, this is where the countdown in his head should start.

3  . . . 2 . . . 1 ( shoot ) . . . bzzzzzzzzzz

When you watch this clip, do you think he can get around  Gobert with a few quick dribbles, to get a clean look at the basket?

 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx3jxojpFgBnlSFxhb_

 

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

When you say someone has an agenda as opposed to an opinion that implies they are unreasonable on the issue and willing to disregard facts in order to promote that agenda.

I hear that. But are you really going to contend that that, in fact, isn't what happens?

I'll just point to myself.

I have an agenda, and one that some people have explicitly taken issue with, and others have not but they agreed with those who took issue with me, and others still have not because they agree with that agenda and see no cause for adding to what I've posted.

It's actually not wrong to say I start any conversation about Ressler with the (relatively newfound) conclusion that Ressler can only be depended upon to say what he wants me/you/us to believe today, which may or may not be the thing he wants people to believe tomorrow.

Whether someone wants to pretend my agenda is baseless is a related but separate other topic, and one that certainly is meat to be chewed on if someone wants to put that one under the microscope. I really don't mind.

I even encourage it.

 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

As such, most people understand saying another poster has an agenda to at least imply that said poster is not based in reality and that their post on this should be disregarded as unreasonable and biased due to that agenda.  Thus framing someone else’s view as an agenda is a personal attack.

I urge you to think about this... it's only a personal attack to the degree that there's been no conversation about the legitimacy of whatever conclusions/assumptions are the meat of the "agenda."

And so, respectfully, I would counter that the better, smarter, more productive response to accusations of having an agenda is to press the parties having the disagreement to drill down on the legitimacy of the conclusions/assumptions begin suggested.

It might be the same as my case... I really don't mind people suggesting I have agendas because as soon as they say that, they also know, it's not as-if I haven't supported my reasoning for those agendas... if there's one thing I'm infamous for around here, it's that I don't back down if my rationale is well supported.

(Of course, I'd love to think that I also get credit for being among the handful of posters... and you, too, have been one... who values intellectual humility enough to back down when new reasoning or evidence is put on the table and merits backing down. It's only too bad, imo, that internet boards including ours become places where people come for the social affirmation over testing their thoughts and ideas... and also listening to others'... for validity.)

Where I do think people get in trouble... and believe me, I'm not talking about whatever issue prompted this instruction from you because I haven't bothered to go back and read that far... is that they tend to make absolutist statements like "You always yada yada yada," or "You never yada, yada, yada." It happens to be a very typical intimate partner mistake too, btw... it shifts the discussion from substance into a sidebar conversation about whether "always" or "never" is accurate.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

My thing is this.  All of us who have played basketball before, has simulated the game winning buzzer beating shot by counting down and shooting when our count gets to 1.  We've done this since we were kids.  But did Dre ever do that?

 

And in hindsight, why are we having one of our least decision makers throwing in the ball?  I would honestly trust Collins to throw in the ball to the right guy, than Dre.  He had both Bogi and Bey open to receive a pass.

But the shot . . smh. 

Like I said in the 1st paragraph, this is where the countdown in his head should start.

3  . . . 2 . . . 1 ( shoot ) . . . bzzzzzzzzzz

When you watch this clip, do you think he can get around  Gobert with a few quick dribbles, to get a clean look at the basket?

 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx3jxojpFgBnlSFxhb_

 

 

Go to the 9:28 mark in the video.

Trae is obviously the decoy on this play, which is silly.

The play is being drawn up for either Bogi or Bey, with Hunter being the bail out guy if the ref's count gets close to 5, which it did.

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And in hindsight, why are we having one of our least decision makers throwing in the ball? 

This was the biggest flaw in the ATO.  Dre doesn't have that quick feel or instinct.  Everything is methodical.

[AHF]

29 minutes ago, sturt said:

Um.

Okay, but you realize like any of us do that they've already tried ALL of that.

Over and over and over and over and over, etc, etc, etc.

Not working.

 

What else ya got?

That is it.  A choice between sending people home from the game not knowing if it will be reopened for a missed call in the third quarter, massive delays for more review, or accepting some calls will go uncorrected.  Technology is the only long term solution I can see.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Understood and I wasn’t even a part of the discussion but I do have a question…

What if ..”a particular poster” keeps desiring the same unreasonable bs? Wouldn’t that then be “an agenda” if 50 other posters see it as such? 
 

 

Short version:

1 - Just address it on the merits.  Copy and paste if needed.

2 - If the person is spamming threads or doing something that violates the rules then report their post or PM a mod.  

[shakes]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

 

I keep waiting for someone to explain why if the refs hate Trae so much why do they call these 'baited' fouls in his favor?  If all the complaining and hate gets him to the line 16 times then i hope he keeps doing it. 

the refs show their dislike for Trae in their refusal to ever give him continuation.   They'll call the fouls because they are fouls and they have to call them, but they put their personal opinion on it by refusing to give Trae continuation.

 

You can't tell me with a straight face that other star players get/don't get continuation at the same rate as Trae.  It's blatantly obvious watching the games.

[shakes]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

They're playing chess, not checkers macd.  They have no choice but to call clear contact.  They just hate that he puts them in that position.  Their refvenge is to never grant continuation and to deny shooting fouls if they can come up with any semblance of a reason to do so.  When the opponent is in the penalty, iiwii.

Plus they ensure his teammates pay the price by getting absolutely hosed and screwed on both ends.  You see some of the contact Collins and Hunter are forced to play through?  And after getting bruised and battered, the ref just sits there with a thumb and whistle up their rear.

I was watching Reid last night lookin' like Karl Malone Duncan and started coveting him for Collins.  Then I had to catch myself.  If he were a Hawk, no way they allowed all his travels and uncalled fouls.  NBA got butthurt the Hawks unstaged their Nix resurgence 2 years ago.  I feel sorry for whatever team eliminates them this year. 

oops, responded before reading your response saying the same thing.

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, sturt said:

I hear that. But are you really going to contend that that, in fact, isn't what happens?

I'll just point to myself.

I have an agenda, and one that some people have explicitly taken issue with, and others have not but they agreed with those who took issue with me, and others still have not because they agree with that agenda and see no cause for adding to what I've posted.

It's actually not wrong to say I start any conversation about Ressler with the (relatively newfound) conclusion that Ressler can only be depended upon to say what he wants me/you/us to believe today, which may or may not be the thing he wants people to believe tomorrow.

Whether someone wants to pretend my agenda is baseless is a related but separate other topic, and one that certainly is meat to be chewed on if someone wants to put that one under the microscope. I really don't mind.

I even encourage it.

 

I urge you to think about this... it's only a personal attack to the degree that there's been no conversation about the legitimacy of whatever conclusions/assumptions are the meat of the "agenda."

And so, respectfully, I would counter that the better, smarter, more productive response to accusations of having an agenda is to press the parties having the disagreement to drill down on the legitimacy of the conclusions/assumptions begin suggested.

It might be the same as my case... I really don't mind people suggesting I have agendas because as soon as they say that, they also know, it's not as-if I haven't supported my reasoning for those agendas... if there's one thing I'm infamous for around here, it's that I don't back down if my rationale is well supported.

(Of course, I'd love to think that I also get credit for being among the handful of posters... and you, too, have been one... who values intellectual humility enough to back down when new reasoning or evidence is put on the table and merits backing down. It's only too bad, imo, that internet boards including ours become places where people come for the social affirmation over testing their thoughts and ideas... and also listening to others'... for validity.)

Where I do think people get in trouble... and believe me, I'm not talking about whatever issue prompted this instruction from you because I haven't bothered to go back and read that far... is that they tend to make absolutist statements like "You always yada yada yada," or "You never yada, yada, yada." It happens to be a very typical intimate partner mistake too, btw... it shifts the discussion from substance into a sidebar conversation about whether "always" or "never" is accurate.

 

Where people take your advice and refocus the conversation on the merits, there are going to be no issues.  People can always do that here to get things back on track regardless if the issue is name calling, questioning a poster’s intelligence, accusing a poster of bias, etc.  People are being asked to avoid these things because they distract from the conversation and end up with people feeling insulted, defensive, etc.  If someone tells me I am a dolt because of my view then we can avoid broader issues by calming down the rhetoric and talking basketball.  As a moderator we are going to come down on people who engage in these behaviors because they are detrimental to the board as a whole but clearly not every instance is a huge deal.  Here it wasn’t but I reminded people to avoid these kinds of attacks for these reasons and people moved right on.  All good.

The word “agenda” isn’t banned from the site and can be used in ways that aren’t a problem at all.  The most common use is problematic which is accusing the other person of having an agenda as an attack on the position they articulated by virtue of that agenda stripping the poster of credibility on the issue.  That is why the reminder showed up here.  
 

Best to avoid name calling in all forms.

[BrazilianHawk]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

The refs were horrible obviously.  I felt like they were horrible in our favor at times and in Minny's favor at times. Unfortunately, it was in their favor at the end.  And that's that.  

I'm still not sure how Dre has 3.0 sec to shoot and doesn't draw iron.  

Watching that 3rd quarter was really hard. They would make a terrible call for one side and then call 2 bogus fouls for the other side, trying to compensate. No doubt it was one of the worst officiated games I can remember. All in all the Hawks were shafted, we should definitely have won the game. 

Now Dre, yeah... He makes the open ones at a very good clip, but under pressure he fails miserably.

[BrazilianHawk]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Sorry.  I get caught by the same posters saying the same things that are sometime factual, sometimes not after every loss.  Honestly, it's why I've stopped posting in game threads for the most part.  I'll show myself out.  

I feel you bro. I get caught by the same posters saying the same things that are sometimes factual, sometimes not after every win. 

 

[BrazilianHawk]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

 

I keep waiting for someone to explain why if the refs hate Trae so much why do they call these 'baited' fouls in his favor?  If all the complaining and hate gets him to the line 16 times then i hope he keeps doing it. 

So they can call a lot of bull crap against the Hawks and make sure they don't win in the end. 

Well, that's my best guess anyway. 

[JeffS17]

We crumbled away a decent lead in the second half of the fourth quarter.  The final call of the game was frustrating but the officiating was bad for both sides.  Trae foul baited and got 3 free throws on what was zero contact just a few minutes earlier -- tough to blame this one on the refs, nor should the refs be the focus.  Let's focus on not turning the ball over and becoming anemic on offense in the 4th quarter.  Or focus on getting stops, something we seem to be incapable of in the fourth quarter.  I don't know the stats on this years team in the 4th, but from my memory and accumulated PTSD, we have to be one of the worse teams in the league.

Anyways, this last part of the season is inconsequential with regard to my optimism for the future.  Snyder is learning what we have and we don't have, which will put us in a much better place this offseason than if Nate rode out the last bit of the season.  Hopefully we just work on building good habits for the remainder of this season, and hopefully we stay healthy for a solid offseason of work under a coach with a strong vision

[BrazilianHawk]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

And therein lies the problem, no matter how good and mechanically sound he is through 3.99 quarters, that last second shot, he worries me. 

That shot should most definitely have gone to other player. But it's easy to say so in hindsight, I can't remember other situation in which Dre had to make the final shot. 

 

That was a terrible shot, but we all have seen a lot worse from other players, like not even being able to shoot it in the first place. 

[Spud2nique]

34 minutes ago, AHF said:

Best to avoid name calling in all forms.

So can I call @kg01 a butthead in PM’s, it’s really the only thing that gets me through my day. 

[BrazilianHawk]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Because we only have one guy willing and capable of handling the ball in pressure situations.  And the reward fans give him for literally being the only one willing and capable of handling the ball in pressure situations is to affix an outsized portion of blame when things don't work out. 

Is that so? It just boggles my mind to see the Hawks completely get away from what worked well for 3 quarters and screw themselves in the 4th.

 

Could it be that 8 of 9 players in the rotation just aren't willing or capable to shoot it at the end of games? I find it really hard to believe this, but yeah, it could be true. Who knows. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Is that so? It just boggles my mind to see the Hawks completely get away from what worked well for 3 quarters and screw themselves in the 4th.

 

Could it be that 8 of 9 players in the rotation just aren't willing or capable to shoot it at the end of games? I find it really hard to believe this, but yeah, it could be true. Who knows. 

While team adjust and tighten up down the stretch, I’m 100% on board with the idea that we need an actual offense to run down the stretch and not what we have seen this season.  Ineffective, unreliable and ugly to watch.  Our architect need to earn his money drawing up plans for a better approach to fourth quarters.

[Gray Mule]

Question:  Which Hawk is the best under pressure player on the current roster?

AJ Griffin would be my choice until he hit the rookie wall.  Now, I don't know.  Maybe Bey?  He's not been here long enough to say yes or no.  Your guestimate?

 

[kg01]

52 minutes ago, shakes said:

oops, responded before reading your response saying the same thing.

You're just clamoring for some Kam/AD stuff.  Well from yesterday ...

"The word fear means something you're afraid of.  Am I defining that right, Kam?"  - AD

Huh?