Official Game Thread: Hawks at Pacers

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Yeah I think we saw Capela's last finishing kick in December.  He looks exhausted out there and OO looks inadequate.  Man, if OO and AJ took any kind of steps, that would be something. 

I'm trying to be patient with OO and AJ because sometimes young players take a step back from our expectations to start a season. I'm hoping for progress over the next month.

I just don't think the front office did enough in the offseason to mitigate any of this.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm trying to be patient with OO and AJ because sometimes young players take a step back from our expectations to start a season. I'm hoping for progress over the next month.

I just don't think the front office did enough in the offseason to mitigate any of this.

This is troubling because their inadequacy could lead to some terribad decisions.

[Spud2nique]

17 minutes ago, kg01 said:

terribad

You need your own dic(tionary) (Gradey). The cagey combos!

[benhillboy]

12 hours ago, terrell said:

Trae's daddy liked this tweet...

Nobody who watches and understands the modern NBA (obviously excluding Perk) would’ve expected anything over .500 for this assembly of players and staff.  But even I’m slightly surprised at 6 games under with a below average strength of schedule.  
 

The individual players’ middling or worse metrics totally match the film.  So many ways to exploit them, good coaches like Mazzula, Carlisle, and Spo are like kids in a candy store.  When Derrick White says “most NBA players don’t know how to play” the Hawks are prime examples.  
 

Players who don’t screen, cut, communicate, pressure, drive, box out, or double team hard serve no purpose for winning.  None.  Put the cherry and sprinkles on top of a poor team passing IQ and no semblance of a vocal leader and you have a team that’s gonna be lottery bound by month's end.

I can’t comprehend how yall follow Twitter.

Edited January 6 by benhillboy

[kg01]

13 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Nobody who watches and understands the modern NBA (obviously excluding Perk) would’ve expected anything over .500 for this assembly of players and staff.  But even I’m slightly surprised at 6 games under with a below average strength of schedule.  
 

The individual players’ middling or worse metrics totally match the film.  So many ways to exploit them, good coaches like Mazzula, Carlisle, and Spo are like kids in a candy store.  When Derrick White says “most NBA players don’t know how to play” the Hawks are prime examples.  
 

Players who don’t screen, cut, communicate, pressure, drive, box out, or double team hard serve no purpose for winning.  None.  Put the cherry and sprinkles on top of a poor team passing IQ and no semblance of a vocal leader and you have a team that’s gonna be lottery bound by month's end.

I can’t comprehend how yall follow Twitter.

The troubling thing is that our "basketball people" put this assemblage together, stood back, and patted themselves on the back for a job well done.  That is terrifying to me.

But folks are content with sitting back and blaming one player for all our ills.

I also have trouble following Twitter.  The structure often makes no logical sense.  On top of that, it's mainly a cesspool of nonsense from idiots. Maybe I'm just old.

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, deester11 said:

Goofy gif or not, you and Soth can ride that Hunter train all you want.  But this Hunter is out stuff is stupid.  I agree we stink.

I don't like hunter. Just to be clear. But when you need a car and the Pinto is the only one you got well....

[shakes]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

 

Going to the ECF wasn't the problem.  It's what we did after.  We didn't make any attempts to improve the team.  In fact we went the other way.  

Lol I think you’re proving my point.

Why didn’t we make any attempts to improve the team?

Because we just went to the ECF with the team we had.

 

1+1 = 2

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

I said that a few days ago and Diesel said that don't mean anything, lmao.  The entire Western Conference has flipped while the Hawks are just being the Hawks.  But hey, they can do the "ice trae" at State Farm Arena.

 

The mistake the organization made, is that they bet on EVERYBODY.  And they still haven't brought in high level talent to pair with Trae.  DJ being the closest.

When Trae made the jump from possible boom or bust type of talent, to a definitive All-Star talent, they thought that it was time to start constructing the team to win, instead of being an also-ran in the draft.  But they did it by doubling down on all of their young guys, and only adding incremental low cost veteran tweaks to the lineup.

Let's look at the draft picks first from 2017 - 2021.
 

Rotation player draft picks between 2017 - 2020

• Collins ( #19 )
• Luka . . . traded for Trae ( #5 )
• Kevin ( #19 )
• Jaxson Hayes ( #8 ). . . traded for 12 ( #4 ) in this deal that also brought us Solo and eventually Lundy. And I think at least one of these 2nd round picks were used to bring in Saddiq Bey.

• Reddish ( #10 )
• Okongwu ( #20 )

And then in 2021, after we made our run, we drafted Jalen Johnson at #20 . . who really didn't get a chance to contribute until January 2023.

 

Of these players drafted, how many of them actually improved significantly in their first 3 - 4 years in the league?  When I cite the best month of their career, I'm only citing months in which they played in 50% of the games.  Not months where they only played in 3 - 5 games.  Too small of a sample size.

 

• Trae ( yes ) . . progressed to All-NBA level, while hanging perennially around All-Star level. Top 25 player in the league.  Has exceeded most scouts and "experts" expectations.  Best month of career as a Hawk:  ( Dec 2023 ) - 32 ppg - 11 ast. - 48% FG - 42% 3FG )

 

• Collins ( yes - then declined ) . . peaked when he mainly played the dunkers spot in the pick and roll with Trae as his PG.  Developed a 3 point shot.  Never reached All-Star level but possibly got close.  Declined when Capela was brought on due to Collins defensive issues at the 5. Barely top 100 in the league as of 2024. Best month as a Hawk:  ( Feb 2020 ) - 25.6 ppg - 10.4 rebs - 64% FG

 

• Huerter ( stagnant ) . . will always be a Hawks legend for his Game 7 performance vs Philly, but is essentially the same player he was coming into the league.  Barely a top 150 player in the league as of 2024 after peaking in year 1 in Sacramento.  Has added nothing to this game that would suggest he could become a high level player.  Currently having worst shooting stretch of his career.  Best month as a Hawk: ( Dec 2021 ) - 13.4 ppg - 3.4 asst - 47% FG - 43% 3FG

 

• 12 ( stagnant ) . . despite being a top 5 pick, the only thing that Hunter has added to his game is better 3 point shooting.  Injuries and non-energetic play on both sides of the ball has kept him from reaching that next level of being an impact player on a nightly basis.  Top 100 player in the league?  Best month as a Hawk: ( Feb 2023 ) - 15.5 ppg - 4.3 rebs - 50% FG - 39% 3FG

 

• Reddish ( hell no ) . . an overall bust while in ATL. Had a great playoff game when the Hawks were getting blown out.  Never an impact player while in Atlanta.  Not even a top 200 player in the league, despite getting starter's minutes in Los Angeles in 2024.  Best month as a Hawk: ( Jan 2020 ) - 14.7 pts - 2.1 rebs - 40% FG - 39% 3FG

 

• Okongwu ( TBD ) . . this was the year he was supposed to break out, but he has somewhat declined.  Trying to add long range shooting to his game. No breakout progression in his game so far, despite being a solid player, like most of the other draft picks before him.  Best month as a Hawk: ( March 2023 ) - 12.2 pts - 6.7 rebs - 71% FG - 81% FT

 

Collins was supposed to be that 2nd star beside of Trae. His change in role in the offense, killed that, because he didn't have enough skills in other areas to be that guy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Is the REAL CRIME the Hawks have committed, is that we didn't select the best player available on the board each season and we're failing to draft guys that can be developed into higher level players? 

@Gray Mule consistently points out that we passed on Haliburton in order to take Okongwu.  While Okongwu was a position of need for the Hawks, Haliburton was the guy projected to have the most potential and better talent.  Hali showed that from Day 1, but the Kings felt that Fox was the better choice and that they couldn't play Fox and Hali together after just 1.5 seasons  With that squad having multiple holes, they decided to trade Haliburton while his value was the highest.

That enabled the Kings, a doormat franchise, to trade a good young player for a good borderline all-star frontcourt player ( Sabonis ).  Once they flipped Haliburton, they've been a good NBA team ever since.  Not a championship level team, but a good team that might be a piece away from contending.  And Haliburton finally got a chance to show all of his talent in a starting role.

If the Hawks take Haliburton, maybe that combo works out much better in ATL than it did in SAC, seeing how both Trae and Hali can pass the ball, and how both can shoot from range.  It's the ultimate in hindsight, but it was obvious from the jump that Okongwu was going to have to be developed, while Haliburton was already a guy with talent, that just needed minutes to show what he could do.

What happens to the Hawks trajectory if we draft Haliburton in 2020 instead of Okongwu?   And we know the reasons why they didn't take Hali.  We had Trae at PG AND we were betting on Reddish being the guy at the 2.

But if you're rebuilding a team, you almost always have to draft for best player available, and trade or dig in free agency for "need".

 

The difference in mentality from the Kings flipping Haliburton early in order to upgrade the team, and the Hawks . . is that the Hawks tend to covet EVERY SINGLE GUY that they have, and resist pulling the trigger to flip them for someone better. 

This was actually the criticism of guys like Rick Sund, when we had JJ, Smoove, Marvin, Horford, and people wanted us to trade one or more for a better player.  We refused and even doubled down on every single one, and bet on that core to get us to the next level.  Once it didn't work out, we sold every single one of those guys for either nothing, or pennies on the dollar.  And we're doing the same thing now.

 

The Hawks front office do things halfway.  Our free agent and trades have for the most part been solid, and has added guys who added significant value to the rotation

• Gallinari
• Lou Williams
• Bogi
• Capela
• DJ

It's our development of young players is where we're missing.  And because our development is poor ( or slow ), we take too long to flip them for something better.

So how long were we supposed to play the lottery, if

• we weren't bad enough to select in the top 5 and get one of the top players
• we had a track record of not developing talent to their full potential
• we maybe were selecting guys who didn't have true developmental potential in the first place

 

This is why we can't slow play JJ, like Nate was trying to do.  Give this kid everything he can handle right now, to see if he can quickly become a high level player. 

And as far as AJ goes, if you feel that he can't become anything more than a Buddy Hield clone . . sell on him QUICKLY.  The same goes for Okongwu.  If the Bam Adebayo projections are beyond his reach, we might want to flip him too for a better fitting vet player or a prospect with greater potential.

Any other current players who are stagnant and don't show the potential to elevate their value, should also be considered in any move.

Edited January 6 by TheNorthCydeRises

[deester11]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

I don't like hunter. Just to be clear. But when you need a car and the Pinto is the only one you got well....

That is quite the post . Touché Soth..Lmao 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

I don't like hunter. Just to be clear. But when you need a car and the Pinto is the only one you got well....

 

LOL . . exactly.

As a Junior in high school, I drove this car to school.

 

 

The biggest issue with this car is that it had starting and engine idling issues.  I only knew basic stuff about cars from my grandad, who used to be a mechanic.  He showed me how to start the car if it were having problems and/or how to keep it running

• If the car doesn't start, get a screwdriver and touch it to the 2 bolts on the starter solenoid

 

 

• Once you get it running, to keep it from cutting off on you in idle, keep your foot on the brake and rev the motor.  If you have to throw it in neutral at a stop light, do it while still revving the engine.

I did this in the 6 months I had the car, before the engine finally quit on me that summer.

 

Takeaways

• Doing all of this to keep the car starting and running, was better than having no car at all
• When running, the car did get me from point A to point B
• Teenage girls are brutal, even back in the 80s, so they would laugh when I had to do all of this
• The homies didn't care. They were just happy to ride with someone with a car

 

 

Final verdict:  The car did its job when it was running, no more . . no less.  It was not a sustainable long term option.  An upgrade was needed.

 

That's 12 in a nut shell.

 

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

LOL . . exactly.

As a Junior in high school, I drove this car to school.

 

 

The biggest issue with this car is that it had starting and engine idling issues.  I only knew basic stuff about cars from my grandad, who used to be a mechanic.  He showed me how to start the car if it were having problems and/or how to keep it running

• If the car doesn't start, get a screwdriver and touch it to the 2 bolts on the starter solenoid

 

 

• Once you get it running, to keep it from cutting off on you in idle, keep your foot on the brake and rev the motor.  If you have to throw it in neutral at a stop light, do it while still revving the engine.

I did this in the 6 months I had the car, before the engine finally quit on me that summer.

 

Takeaways

• Doing all of this to keep the car starting and running, was better than having no car at all
• When running, the car did get me from point A to point B
• Teenage girls are brutal, even back in the 80s, so they would laugh when I had to do all of this
• The homies didn't care. They were just happy to ride with someone with a car

 

 

Final verdict:  The car did its job when it was running, no more . . no less.  It was not a sustainable long term option.  An upgrade was needed.

 

That's 12 in a nut shell.

 

So ..... is Trae keeping smHunter from being Jayson Tatum or nah? 

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

EXACTLY!!!

How is it exactly? Murray trade was their massive attempt 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Nobody who watches and understands the modern NBA (obviously excluding Perk) would’ve expected anything over .500 for this assembly of players and staff.  But even I’m slightly surprised at 6 games under with a below average strength of schedule.  
 

The individual players’ middling or worse metrics totally match the film.  So many ways to exploit them, good coaches like Mazzula, Carlisle, and Spo are like kids in a candy store.  When Derrick White says “most NBA players don’t know how to play” the Hawks are prime examples.  
 

Players who don’t screen, cut, communicate, pressure, drive, box out, or double team hard serve no purpose for winning.  None.  Put the cherry and sprinkles on top of a poor team passing IQ and no semblance of a vocal leader and you have a team that’s gonna be lottery bound by month's end.

I can’t comprehend how yall follow Twitter.

 

Fun Fact:  When the Hawks made their historic run in the 2021 playoff season, the bottom out point from a record standpoint was .  .  . 14 - 20.

We had a bad loss @ your favorite team ( Miami )

• Collins balled out ( 34 pts )
• Trae played like crap ( 3 - 14 FG . . . 15 pts - 9 asst - 7 TOs ) . . but was somehow ( +9 ) for the game
• Bench ( Gallo - Rondo - Solo ) played horrible
• No Jimmy Butler in the lineup
• Kendrick Nunn was their leading scorer ( 24 pts - 7 asst )

LP gets fired after the game.  Nate takes over.  Bogi, who had been out for almost 2 months come back.  And the Hawks go on their big run to end the season.

 

Not suggesting that this will happen again without some sort of significant move.  Just interesting to see that the last time we were this bad, is when things dramatically turned around.

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

LOL . . exactly.

As a Junior in high school, I drove this car to school.

 

 

The biggest issue with this car is that it had starting and engine idling issues.  I only knew basic stuff about cars from my grandad, who used to be a mechanic.  He showed me how to start the car if it were having problems and/or how to keep it running

• If the car doesn't start, get a screwdriver and touch it to the 2 bolts on the starter solenoid

 

 

• Once you get it running, to keep it from cutting off on you in idle, keep your foot on the brake and rev the motor.  If you have to throw it in neutral at a stop light, do it while still revving the engine.

I did this in the 6 months I had the car, before the engine finally quit on me that summer.

 

Takeaways

• Doing all of this to keep the car starting and running, was better than having no car at all
• When running, the car did get me from point A to point B
• Teenage girls are brutal, even back in the 80s, so they would laugh when I had to do all of this
• The homies didn't care. They were just happy to ride with someone with a car

 

 

Final verdict:  The car did its job when it was running, no more . . no less.  It was not a sustainable long term option.  An upgrade was needed.

 

That's 12 in a nut shell.

 

I will be happy when you finally make a good post on Hunter. I don't believe you are capable of doing that

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

So ..... is Trae keeping smHunter from being Jayson Tatum or nah? 

 

Absolutely he is limiting 12 from being a high level player

Because that same 1973 Comet, in peak form, could look like this:

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I will be happy when you finally make a good post on Hunter. I don't believe you are capable of doing that

 

At this day and age, you are probably correct.

I've said plenty of times that if he became more of an impact player, he could literally change the trajectory of our season and maybe our franchise.  I can't wait on his potential and hype any longer.  On a bad defensive team, we need him to be the defensive stud that the entire unit revolves around.  Those expectations are way too high to place on him, so I can't expect him to do it.

The last gasp I have for him, is to bring him off the bench and see if he can be more of an impact player.  Or play him at the 2 in a big lineup.

If you gave him Bogi's role off the bench, maybe what @Hawkmoor says about him being an offensive focal point, could be realized.  He may actually excel in that role, if all he were required to do was score the basketball.  He's not going to playmake nor rebound, but he has shown that he can score at times, when aggressive.

But I've always said that he offensively reminds me more of a poor man's Joe Johnson, than anyone else.   And Joe used his physical advantage at the 2 to really get at people.

Maybe the ultimate winning lineup for the Hawks is this lineup as a starting group

• Trae ( 6 - 1 )
• 12 ( 6 - 8 )
• JJ  ( 6 - 9 )
• Okongwu  ( 6 - 8 )
• Capela  ( 6 - 10 )

 

If Murray really is a disgruntled player, maybe this is the lineup you throw at people once he is traded.

 

Or like I said, give him Bogi's role off the bench.  But we'd have to trade Bogi to open that up

Starters

• Trae
• DJ
• ( whomever we trade Bogi for )
• JJ
• Capela

Bench unit

• Bufkin
• 12
• Bey
• OO

 

There!  I halfway did it!

 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

At this day and age, you are probably correct.

I've said plenty of times that if he became more of an impact player, he could literally change the trajectory of our season and maybe our franchise.  I can't wait on his potential and hype any longer.  On a bad defensive team, we need him to be the defensive stud that the entire unit revolves around.  Those expectations are way too high to place on him, so I can't expect him to do it.

The last gasp I have for him, is to bring him off the bench and see if he can be more of an impact player.  Or play him at the 2 in a big lineup.

If you gave him Bogi's role off the bench, maybe what @Hawkmoor says about him being an offensive focal point, could be realized.  He may actually excel in that role, if all he were required to do was score the basketball.  He's not going to playmake nor rebound, but he has shown that he can score at times, when aggressive.

But I've always said that he offensively reminds me more of a poor man's Joe Johnson, than anyone else.   And Joe used his physical advantage at the 2 to really get at people.

Maybe the ultimate winning lineup for the Hawks is this lineup as a starting group

• Trae ( 6 - 1 )
• 12 ( 6 - 8 )
• JJ  ( 6 - 9 )
• Okongwu  ( 6 - 8 )
• Capela  ( 6 - 10 )

 

If Murray really is a disgruntled player, maybe this is the lineup you throw at people once he is traded.

 

Or like I said, give him Bogi's role off the bench.  But we'd have to trade Bogi to open that up

Starters

• Trae
• DJ
• ( whomever we trade Bogi for )
• JJ
• Capela

Bench unit

• Bufkin
• 12
• Bey
• OO

 

There!  I halfway did it!

 

Anytime your post is longer than two paragraphs, it's usually a rant

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

As a Junior in high school, I drove this car to school.

So you were a pimp?  

30 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Anytime your post is longer than two paragraphs, it's usually a rant

Coming from the pro  

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

LOL . . exactly.

As a Junior in high school, I drove this car to school.

 

 

The biggest issue with this car is that it had starting and engine idling issues.  I only knew basic stuff about cars from my grandad, who used to be a mechanic.  He showed me how to start the car if it were having problems and/or how to keep it running

• If the car doesn't start, get a screwdriver and touch it to the 2 bolts on the starter solenoid

 

 

• Once you get it running, to keep it from cutting off on you in idle, keep your foot on the brake and rev the motor.  If you have to throw it in neutral at a stop light, do it while still revving the engine.

I did this in the 6 months I had the car, before the engine finally quit on me that summer.

 

Takeaways

• Doing all of this to keep the car starting and running, was better than having no car at all
• When running, the car did get me from point A to point B
• Teenage girls are brutal, even back in the 80s, so they would laugh when I had to do all of this
• The homies didn't care. They were just happy to ride with someone with a car

 

 

Final verdict:  The car did its job when it was running, no more . . no less.  It was not a sustainable long term option.  An upgrade was needed.

 

That's 12 in a nut shell.

 

I actually drove a 70 something firebird that was goldish color. I’m not a car dude but my dad was a slanger of mobiles so he put them under me when he had a couple. Only muscle cars I had were that, a brown 69 corvette (for literally a couple weeks) and a 93 white Ford Mustang that had a lil ummf, outside of that now I’ve blended into the general society of robot b!tches. 
 

I don’t have a Prius tho, I’m not there yet, I’m still way too sexy for that and always will be, it could give me miles per gallon and I’d still pass, I get sad when I look at them.  

My apologies for those who own them, you’re still good people, prolly better people I just can’t .. lol.