Official Game Dread: Hawks at Hornets

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

My point is that they don't spend money on their depth not that it isn't good.  Show me the payroll evidence of a team that budgeted more than $4M/year for players outside of the top 8 on their roster.  Many times the teams with the best players attract quality depth pieces who are essentially ring chasers playing for vet mins.  

Attracting good depth with a high level core is very different from buying it.  No one is spending for depth.  I've looked at the best team's payrolls.  Have you?  

Again, it isn't about money.  It is about useful players.  Patty Mills doesn't get extra credit for me because we are paying $7M for him.  He instead looks bad in comparison to the production that Andre Drummond, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, Cameron Payne, and many other deep bench buys are providing.  I'm less concerned about who is making $7M and who is making minimum salary and more concerned about who is value add when they are on the floor and who is a detriment to the team when they play.

Good teams often have quite useful players outside of their top 8.  We haven't enjoyed that even a little this season.

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

My biggest critique of Ressler is not letting Schlenk make basketball decisions

There are few criticisms that you can make of an owner that are worse than this, imo.  I can see arguments for and against having a bottom third payroll every year (I can't see good reasons for that happening over and over but year by year I can see arguments) but any argument that the owner should interfere with his GM is never going to resonate with me.  Get the **** out of the way of your basketball people.  Not just for the team and the fans but for your own self-interest as well.  Meddling by owners does not end up with a happy ending

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

We've been trying to fix what works with Trae for 6 years. Three coaches, 2.5 GMs. 

OH Really???

What Allstar big have we put beside Trae?  It's not the coaching or the Front office that makes the difference.  It's the players. 

When Lebron was in Cleveland.   Coaches and FO never made the difference.   In fact, on his return tour, he took Blatt to the championship game.   However, what Lebron realized is that if you want to win a chip, you have to surround him with the right players.   That is why he builds teams.  He doesn't care who the coach or the GM is...  Just so long as they don't get in the way of him bringing in the right players. 

And if Trae is Batman... 

Look at what we have surrounded him with.

DJ and JC?

Here is how JC has ranked in his career...

Here is how DJ has ranked in his Career....

 

And Just for grins...  Here is CC's career ranking.

So this is the core that we have put around Trae and you Say....  We have tried everything??  Looks like we have lined Trae with some mid players and expected him to do miracle work?

Here's what Bron needed to be competitive (AD)...

 

That's just for a Lebron Led team to be competitive and you think bringing in guys who at best was 52 best NBA player is good enough for Trae??

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

6 hours ago, macdaddy said:

But we haven't.  It took Travis 3 years to put a ECF team together around Trae and then we basically did nothing but offload talent.  We didn't try to fix anything but the bottom line.  

 

5 hours ago, kg01 said:

Not sure why people don't understand this.

There's an overwhelming urge to blame Trae for everything when he's the only thing that's working at a high level.  It's weird. 

Let's think about this, All around the league for other teams, we keep hearing: how much help other guys need to win? So and so needs this player and that player, get that guy some help!!  Why not OUR guy?? Is he supposed to do this himself?

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

So yeah retaining players from a really good playoff team isn't dumb.  But you have to make moves to improve.  Every other team of significance did that.  Bucks, Celtics, Sixers, Knicks aren't resting on their laurels. 

Exactly. Just because you retain to start the season, doesn't mean you finish with the same team. You still need to continually add and make moves to get better.

[theheroatl]

Yeah I don't get the trade Trae people..[] It's the same [as] Laker fans that say trading Lebron will solve their problems...[]

 

The only thing that has worked is Trae... we've had really poor defense surrounding him.

 

Edit:  personal shots removed

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

There were lots of things we could have done.  Retaining Kev and JC weren't our only choices.  We could have moved Capela or Hunter or Bogi for guys with more impact or for more depth.  We could have signed better vets and free agents. 

People act like we sucked after the ECF run.   We were 43-39 but we got royally screwed by covid in december.  We hold the record for most players to play in a single season. Had we not been wiped out by covid games we would have finished probably 5 or 6 in the conference again. 

By the time we got to the debacle with Miami we had a lot of injuries but they just punked us.  it happens.  it happened to them the year before. 

So yeah retaining players from a really good playoff team isn't dumb.  But you have to make moves to improve.  Every other team of significance did that.  Bucks, Celtics, Sixers, Knicks aren't resting on their laurels. 

 

 

I actually was telling everyone we need to make a move directly after the ECF.  I had plenty of posts like this.  I said we needed to trade guys like Cam and Hunter along with Gallo to get another legit player.  Here's one poster telling me Trae, Cam, and Hunter would be a big 3 in July of 2021 and my response.

 

Below, I'm saying trying to sign a "Complete 12" to a contract would cripple our franchise.  The best move was to consolidate young promising guys to upgrade a veteran.  Do you think people on this forum liked that idea in July of 2021?  Nope.

 

You have to understand that it's who you spend $34M on that counts in this league.  After we've spent $158M on the wrong guys, you can't fix it with Jevon Carter, Thybulle, or even keeping Huerter to score 8 points off the bench.  

 So, you don't need to convince me that we should have made better moves.  I nearly predicted what would happen if we didn't trade more of our ECF team while we could.  We didn't.   

 

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Again, it isn't about money.  It is about useful players.  Patty Mills doesn't get extra credit for me because we are paying $7M for him.  He instead looks bad in comparison to the production that Andre Drummond, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, Cameron Payne, and many other deep bench buys are providing.  I'm less concerned about who is making $7M and who is making minimum salary and more concerned about who is value add when they are on the floor and who is a detriment to the team when they play.

Good teams often have quite useful players outside of their top 8.  We haven't enjoyed that even a little this season.

True, and I tried to explain how that happens.  You need a strong core that attracts quality vets.  Do you think Russell Westbrook would sign to play for the Hawks for $4M?  But we also aren't playing our draft picks. 

[StonedDogs]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

OH Really???

What Allstar big have we put beside Trae?  It's not the coaching or the Front office that makes the difference.  It's the players. 

When Lebron was in Cleveland.   Coaches and FO never made the difference.   In fact, on his return tour, he took Blatt to the championship game.   However, what Lebron realized is that if you want to win a chip, you have to surround him with the right players.   That is why he builds teams.  He doesn't care who the coach or the GM is...  Just so long as they don't get in the way of him bringing in the right players. 

And if Trae is Batman... 

Look at what we have surrounded him with.

DJ and JC?

Here is how JC has ranked in his career...

Here is how DJ has ranked in his Career....

 

And Just for grins...  Here is CC's career ranking.

So this is the core that we have put around Trae and you Say....  We have tried everything??  Looks like we have lined Trae with some mid players and expected him to do miracle work?

Here's what Bron needed to be competitive (AD)...

 

That's just for a Lebron Led team to be competitive and you think bringing in guys who at best was 52 best NBA player is good enough for Trae??

 

 

You guys will push this goal post back until he's on an Olympic team. Trae has never won a championship at any high level. High school doesn't count. 

You can't stack a team around him. It's impossible. Trae is a stat packing Robin. It just is what it is. I've come to face reality. This team cannot be fixed in time, in Trae prime years to get him all the tools and all stars you guys are asking for. 

[kg01]

Smh, what are we doing? 

[NBASupes]

57 minutes ago, StonedDogs said:

You guys will push this goal post back until he's on an Olympic team. Trae has never won a championship at any high level. High school doesn't count. 

You can't stack a team around him. It's impossible. Trae is a stat packing Robin. It just is what it is. I've come to face reality. This team cannot be fixed in time, in Trae prime years to get him all the tools and all stars you guys are asking for. 

We can say this but we haven't really built this team to contend and we haven't gotten another offensive star to make life easy for Trae. 

[givemesome1ce1]

I am so tired of the “trade Trae” people. When have we ever put ONE average guard defender in the starting lineup in the Trae Young era? When have ever had more than ONE wing defender other Hunter (who’s knees are cooked) and now Jalen? How is it Trae’s fault we only have ONE power forward on this team? How is Trae’s fault that we have basically ran a 8-9 man rotation for literally 2-3 years because everyone else on the bench sucks? How is it Trae’s fault THAT THE FRONT OFFICE REFUSES TO GET CHEAP GOOD DEFENDERS THAT WERE AVAILABLE DURING THE OFFSEASON THAT WOULD HELP THIS TEAM?  
 

Trae Young is going to break the assist record this year, he already broke the three point record. He may be our all-time leading scorer. And people want to trade him? So we can have a Dejounte Murray led team with a worse offense, but have the front office do ALL THE STUFF they should’ve done with Trae because they were too cheap to do it beforehand? People act like Dejounte has all these connections but I’ve never seen anyone say they want to play Dejounte in my life except Trae. We saw what Dejounte Murray team is…PLAY-IN. Spurs traded him for a reason. Yall want that for three years instead of Landry just getting more front court help? 
 

Atlanta Sports history is not filled with many great players and instead of appreciating and taking advantage of what we have, we are dragging Trae in the dirt for no reason. Get some damn defense on the team and we would win some games. 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

I am so tired of the “trade Trae” people.... 

Familiarity breeds contempt.

That's the only explanation for these folks. 

[Final_quest]

15 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

My biggest critique of Ressler is not letting Schlenk make basketball decisions, which ultimately led to Schlenk's departure.  I personally have not seen a window where it made sense to pay the tax, but his meddling in the Murray deal will possibly be this eras death knell.  The move felt like we were Blazers East at the time and that's what ended up happening... only difference is prime Lillard has a higher floor than Trae because of his size and shot making.

We'll see how the Murray deal works out.  There is an actual chance it could be redeemed.  Supes was saying there is a trade with Murray this summer.  But I do agree that Ressler's meddling has hurt us far more than his willingness to spend.  I think he may have axed some Collins trades that would have set us up pretty well.  This is a much different team with Lauri Markannen and two Utah picks.  That rumor haunts me.  
I've made a lot of mistakes in my transactions.  Just hope Ressler actually learns from his or at least hope that he makes some impulsive reactionary decisions in our favor. 
 

[BrazilianHawk]

15 hours ago, theheroatl said:

Yeah I don't get the trade Trae people..[] It's the same [as] Laker fans that say trading Lebron will solve their problems...[]

 

The only thing that has worked is Trae... we've had really poor defense surrounding him.

That's because building around Trae is really difficult. By the time someone comes with a player that could work with him he's probably already done with the Hawks and demanding a trade because he himself isn't able to make his team mates better.

Of course the front office has a lot to do with the Hawks being ridiculously bad, but I definitely don't agree that people who want to start over without Trae are morons because they're fed up with the team. 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

This is a much different team with Lauri Markannen and two Utah picks.  That rumor haunts me.  

Same, I choose to believe that was never a real deal on the table.

[JeffS17]

15 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

Let's think about this, All around the league for other teams, we keep hearing: how much help other guys need to win? So and so needs this player and that player, get that guy some help!!  Why not OUR guy?? Is he supposed to do this himself?

I'll try to answer the question seriously to give other peoples perspective, with the caveat trading Trae is absolutely not my first option path we should be taking.

Most of the time you hear other guys needing help, it is either older vets that have a lot more time with their franchise (i.e Dame in Portland) without making much noise, or it is more complete players.  Trae will be in the former group if we continue to be mid in the long term, or until he demands a trade.  But for the latter group of players (think Giannis in Milwaukee pre-Jrue trade, or someone like Booker in Phoenix for a long time), it is much easier to jump to the conclusion a player just needs more help if they are an elite and complete two-way guy like Giannis or Embiid.

Trae differs because his only elite skill is playmaking and passing vision, but he still has a lot of turnovers.  And his efficiency scoring is not elite, and he has historically been a huge liability on defense.  He simply has a lot more flaws that require specific skillsets on the floor with him.  He needs guys with size, good rebounders, good floor spacers, good defenders, and a go-to 1st option on offense with size that can self create more efficiently than he can.  Guys like Embiid just need good players around him, with the only real need being serviceably 3P shooters.  Same thing with Giannis.  A guy like Butler who is a +defender, can get you a bucket any time, and switchable on defense just needs other talent around him, nothing specific.  

So while it's technically true Trae needs help, and frankly, he needs help even more than these other guys, you're not going to see that sentiment very much because other guys have fewer flaws in their game that need to be covered up for.  It's easy to just point to the fact guys like Dosunmo are cooking him on defense or he cannot be "the guy" in crunch time because of his size limitations.  He just has a lot more holes that need plugged than most supermax dudes

[macdaddy]

So people really think we have added talent in the last 3 years.  

 

 

[AHF]

44 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I'll try to answer the question seriously to give other peoples perspective, with the caveat trading Trae is absolutely not my first option path we should be taking.

Most of the time you hear other guys needing help, it is either older vets that have a lot more time with their franchise (i.e Dame in Portland) without making much noise, or it is more complete players.  Trae will be in the former group if we continue to be mid in the long term, or until he demands a trade.  But for the latter group of players (think Giannis in Milwaukee pre-Jrue trade, or someone like Booker in Phoenix for a long time), it is much easier to jump to the conclusion a player just needs more help if they are an elite and complete two-way guy like Giannis or Embiid.

Trae differs because his only elite skill is playmaking and passing vision, but he still has a lot of turnovers.  And his efficiency scoring is not elite, and he has historically been a huge liability on defense.  He simply has a lot more flaws that require specific skillsets on the floor with him.  He needs guys with size, good rebounders, good floor spacers, good defenders, and a go-to 1st option on offense with size that can self create more efficiently than he can.  Guys like Embiid just need good players around him, with the only real need being serviceably 3P shooters.  Same thing with Giannis.  A guy like Butler who is a +defender, can get you a bucket any time, and switchable on defense just needs other talent around him, nothing specific.  

So while it's technically true Trae needs help, and frankly, he needs help even more than these other guys, you're not going to see that sentiment very much because other guys have fewer flaws in their game that need to be covered up for.  It's easy to just point to the fact guys like Dosunmo are cooking him on defense or he cannot be "the guy" in crunch time because of his size limitations.  He just has a lot more holes that need plugged than most supermax dudes

I would contrast Trae with Luka.  They aren't the same player but both share a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses and neither is someone that guys are clamoring to play with.

I would say these are the top players with whom Luka has played:

Kyrie Irving (8x All-Star, 3x All-NBA)

Jalen Brunson (All-Star)

Kristaps Porzingis (All-Star)

 

They have kept trying to add talent and upgrade the top level players next to him.  I have more confidence that they will get to a talented roster around him based on the fact that they have been willing to go for big moves and I just haven't seen the same on our end.  Maybe it will prove out that neither guy ended up being the cornerstone of a championship team when their careers were done.  But I feel like at least we'll get to see Dallas giving Luka more of an opportunity to get there than we will based on the activity by the front office over their careers to this point.

[Spud2nique]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would

Wood ya?  (If that’s not a reminder to change my avatar nothing is…)