Official Playoff Game Thread: heat at Hawks -- GAME 4

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, FL_BRYANT said:

In the Bay Area they talk about how Steph has gained 15 lbs of muscle and has improved on defense.  If Golden State can ask Steph a much more accomplished player than Trae to make changes for the team I don't understand  why we can't ask Trae to do the same. A point guard has to make changes and sacrifices for the team. The HAWKS were able to win vs the Heat by pushing the ball, passing and opening the court.  They were too easy to defend when Trae was pounding the pill. Also his teammates are better when playing with pace and space. A good point guard has to read this and pick when to take over games. It is not about how many points and assist Trae gets it's about how  and when he gets them.  It doesn't have to be all about Trae. Although we need  personnel  upgrades Trae will have to learn how to trust his teammates.  He can't do this by himself.  Too many examples of high scoring point guards who had great stats but never won anything 

Pace is on the coach. 

Nate coaches a slow pace.  He allows the walk up.  He wants us to play every series as a halfcourt set.   Nate is the problem. 

We have to improve pace.  Capella can do it.  JC can do it.  I believe that Trae can do it.   We should be a running and gunning team but instead we are a lazy, slow team.  

I've always said, we are a playoff team because during the season we perfect the halfcourt game.   And while that is true and you see it in our sets... we do have power going to the corner three, even started off last night with great halfcourt play...  Mental errors takes us out too easily.   The reason the second team is so much better than the first unit is they increase the pace.  Delon doesn't really push.. Lou has trained them that everybody goes up the court and we're moving the ball by the pass.   Our second unit catches defenses off guard.   The only time they look bad is when Bogi goes Hero balling and start hunting for his shot instead of rotating the ball. 

Somebody said we miss Hunt and Garland.  I guess I agree.   If those guys were responsible for having the pace up then we miss them.   But a Nate coached team will always suffer from pace. 

You know under Lloyd Pierce 2018-2019 we were first in Pace 5th in Fast Break points.  In 2019-2020 , we were 5th in Pace.   Today, we're 20th in Pace and dead last in Fast break points. 

If we get rid of Nate... First call to Mr. 7 seconds...Mike D'Antoni.   Everything we think of as a Flaw, he will find the good in it. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Pace is on the coach. 

Nate coaches a slow pace.  He allows the walk up.  He wants us to play every series as a halfcourt set.   Nate is the problem. 

We have to improve pace.  Capella can do it.  JC can do it.  I believe that Trae can do it.   We should be a running and gunning team but instead we are a lazy, slow team.  

I've always said, we are a playoff team because during the season we perfect the halfcourt game.   And while that is true and you see it in our sets... we do have power going to the corner three, even started off last night with great halfcourt play...  Mental errors takes us out too easily.   The reason the second team is so much better than the first unit is they increase the pace.  Delon doesn't really push.. Lou has trained them that everybody goes up the court and we're moving the ball by the pass.   Our second unit catches defenses off guard.   The only time they look bad is when Bogi goes Hero balling and start hunting for his shot instead of rotating the ball. 

Somebody said we miss Hunt and Garland.  I guess I agree.   If those guys were responsible for having the pace up then we miss them.   But a Nate coached team will always suffer from pace. 

You know under Lloyd Pierce 2018-2019 we were first in Pace 5th in Fast Break points.  In 2019-2020 , we were 5th in Pace.   Today, we're 20th in Pace and dead last in Fast break points. 

If we get rid of Nate... First call to Mr. 7 seconds...Mike D'Antoni.   Everything we think of as a Flaw, he will find the good in it. 

 

 

We are an elite half court team in general but when you sellout to stop Trae and now in game 4, sell out to stop the perimeter players. Our bigs gotta step up. Someone has to take advantage of the mismatches and dominate. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

We are an elite half court team in general but when you sellout to stop Trae and now in game 4, sell out to stop the perimeter players. Our bigs gotta step up. Someone has to take advantage of the mismatches and dominate. 

Well, we are also hindered because we are an "elite" half court team.   We got to improve Pace.  Clint and JC can run.  This is how you get them involved. 

We have experimented with Trae off ball.   I don't think that works so well.   Heliocentric or not, there's room for pace to improve our play.  In this series, Miami is an elite defensive halfcourt team.  Not Culture.  They have been coached that if they can play 12 seconds of good defense, they can get the ball back.   That means we waste 8-12 seconds walking the ball up.  We're making it easier on them.  
We should have seen by Trae's game winner that we can catch them out of position if we move up the floor with urgency.  Period.

 

[Final_quest]

I fast forwarded most of the second half.  That was a cringe fest.  Missing shots again, and nearly half of our free throws at one point, losing every 50/50 ball, so many rebounds given up....

Last year it was Miami getting swept after they went to the Finals.  I'm really hesitant to make conclusions about a team from one playoff series.  Even last year I was completely against the dominant opinion that we should run it back. 

Like Miami, these are the moments where you get to reflect and assess towards what your franchise really needs.  I'm not hitting the panic button on Trae.  Our offense being built around one guy isn't gonna work, though.  Thinking about SGA as a dark horse, but it's probably not the right time to get into specific guys. 

Circle the wagons, regroup.  No over reactions.  Get the best players we can for next season.  Be aggressive if the right person is available.     

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I fast forwarded most of the second half.  That was a cringe fest.  Missing shots again, and nearly half of our free throws at one point, losing every 50/50 ball, so many rebounds given up....

Last year it was Miami getting swept after they went to the Finals.  I'm really hesitant to make conclusions about a team from one playoff series.  Even last year I was completely against the dominant opinion that we should run it back. 

Like Miami, these are the moments where you get to reflect and assess towards what your franchise really needs.  I'm not hitting the panic button on Trae.  Our offense being built around one guy isn't gonna work, though.  Thinking about SGA as a dark horse, but it's probably not the right time to get into specific guys. 

Circle the wagons, regroup.  No over reactions.  Get the best players we can for next season.  Be aggressive if the right person is available.     

Save this talk until Wednesday if we're going to lose tomorrow. 

However, hustle should be job one tomorrow. 

[hylndr11]

I think they line will be this is mostly on injuries which certainly is an issue, but i think with healthy trea clint and JC we get passed the heat. We woulndt be any team in the Nba with that second half shit going on, really hope that is just injuries, bogi couldnt do shit either he was immediatly nailed  

[AtLaS]

Miami has completely thrown Trae off his game.  Their hands are EXTREMELY active on D, it seems they get their hands on or tip every pass.  It seems he is deflated, as his entire game is built on driving and breaking down the D and he's not driving at all.  I haven't seen this from him before.  Even when he gets single coverage he's not making confident/quick decisions and beating his man off the dribble as he usually does.  I think the 10 turnover game had an effect.

Trae sees double teams ALL the time.  He usually starts killing them after a quarter or two by making quick reads/decisions and moving the ball and someone ends up wide open.  He's not doing that in this series, he's holding it way too long and doing nothing.    Miami is also picking us up full court so by the time we cross half-court we are working with 17 seconds on the shot clock and Trae is doubled.  Credit to Spo on the gameplan, they have shown us the formula to stopping this teams offense if you have long, athletic defenders.  

It is showing us that we do need a legitimate second scoring option to take pressure off.  LeBron/Kobe/Shaq/Jordan/Duncan all had to have a legitimate 2nd (or 3rd) scoring option.  We don't have that.  It makes it so much easier to guard Trae.  

I have no doubt Trae is going to take this personal, review a bunch of tape and come back much stronger next year.  He will get better from this.  Pretty much every star player has had a humbling experience in their career, and the dude is only 23.  We will get better this IMO.

Edited April 25, 2022 by AtLaS

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

Miami has completely thrown Trae off his game.  Their hands are EXTREMELY active on D, it seems they get their hands on or tip every pass.  It seems he is deflated, as his entire game is built on driving and breaking down the D and he's not driving at all.  I haven't seen this from him before.  Even when he gets single coverage he's not making confident/quick decisions and beating his man off the dribble as he usually does.  I think the 10 turnover game had an effect.

Trae sees double teams ALL the time.  He usually starts killing them after a quarter or two by making quick reads/decisions and moving the ball and someone ends up wide open.  He's not doing that in this series, he's holding it way too long and doing nothing.    Miami is also picking us up full court so by the time we cross half-court we are working with 17 seconds on the shot clock and Trae is doubled.  Credit to Spo on the gameplan, they have shown us the formula to stopping this teams offense if you have long, athletic defenders.  

It is showing us that we do need a legitimate second scoring option to take pressure off.  LeBron/Kobe/Shaq/Jordan/Duncan all had to have a legitimate 2nd (or 3rd) scoring option.  We don't have that.  It makes it so much easier to guard Trae.  

I have no doubt Trae is going to take this personal, review a bunch of tape and come back much stronger next year.  He will get better from this.  Pretty much every star player has had a humbling experience in their career, and the dude is only 23.  We will get better this IMO.

Trae getting his own verison of the Jordan rules. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

I fast forwarded most of the second half.  That was a cringe fest.  Missing shots again, and nearly half of our free throws at one point, losing every 50/50 ball, so many rebounds given up....

Last year it was Miami getting swept after they went to the Finals.  I'm really hesitant to make conclusions about a team from one playoff series.  Even last year I was completely against the dominant opinion that we should run it back. 

Like Miami, these are the moments where you get to reflect and assess towards what your franchise really needs.  I'm not hitting the panic button on Trae.  Our offense being built around one guy isn't gonna work, though.  Thinking about SGA as a dark horse, but it's probably not the right time to get into specific guys. 

Circle the wagons, regroup.  No over reactions.  Get the best players we can for next season.  Be aggressive if the right person is available.     

They made a number of key moves, they didn't stand pat. They got P.J. Tucker. They brought in Lowry. 

[Diesel]

23 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

Miami has completely thrown Trae off his game.  Their hands are EXTREMELY active on D, it seems they get their hands on or tip every pass.  It seems he is deflated, as his entire game is built on driving and breaking down the D and he's not driving at all.  I haven't seen this from him before.  Even when he gets single coverage he's not making confident/quick decisions and beating his man off the dribble as he usually does.  I think the 10 turnover game had an effect.

Trae sees double teams ALL the time.  He usually starts killing them after a quarter or two by making quick reads/decisions and moving the ball and someone ends up wide open.  He's not doing that in this series, he's holding it way too long and doing nothing.    Miami is also picking us up full court so by the time we cross half-court we are working with 17 seconds on the shot clock and Trae is doubled.  Credit to Spo on the gameplan, they have shown us the formula to stopping this teams offense if you have long, athletic defenders.  

It is showing us that we do need a legitimate second scoring option to take pressure off.  LeBron/Kobe/Shaq/Jordan/Duncan all had to have a legitimate 2nd (or 3rd) scoring option.  We don't have that.  It makes it so much easier to guard Trae.  

I have no doubt Trae is going to take this personal, review a bunch of tape and come back much stronger next year.  He will get better from this.  Pretty much every star player has had a humbling experience in their career, and the dude is only 23.  We will get better this IMO.

It's hard to judge game 4 and what Miami did to Trae.

Before Trae hurt himself, we were playing really good.  It was early but there was a feel that we wasn't going to be stopped.   After Trae hurt himself, he disengaged and so did the rest of the team. 

Miami's defense chips away at you.   They hustle at all times.  But  we play into their hands.   We slowed the pace, get the ball up the court and it takes about 8 seconds because we're walking it up.    I can't even call it a bad habit because we've done it all year.   We are allowing them to get set and then trying to beat their set defense.   

When we do that, we've chose to struggle and they look better than they are.

If I told you that if you play each defensive possession hard for 12 seconds, it would be easy for you to do.  well, that's Miami's game... 12 seconds of good defense.   They live within those margins.  Spo has them in the right place for the first few seconds.. i.e. cut off the PNR, build a wall around Trae.   However, we let them get that set up and then think it's a chess match to beat it.   Not with the horses that Miami has.   They can defend for 12 seconds.  Hands in lanes and making sure that they touch you on every possession (Kev).  It's really easy if we waste the first 8 seconds of a possession.  Now, we're rushing to try to score in 4.   Our percentage has gone from a 50% chance to about a 30% chance... and that's our scoring when we allow them to get set. 

Nate got to stress awareness and ball movement. 

 

 

 

[AHF]

5 hours ago, terrell said:

Trae has 24 assists and 24 turnovers in the PLAYOFFS.. Not to mention horrible FG and 3pt% and bad defense... Good Lord..

Hawks arent winning anything if he plays like this regardless of how the Wangs or Bigs play..

Not sure if you are recognizing the chicken and egg issue here.

When a team sells out to swarm an opposing player the counter to that is to move the ball and get punishes from the rest of the team who have a very easy defensive alignment to attack as a result of the double, etc. focusing attention on the other player.

When your wings and bigs don't exploit that kind of defensive focus, it is going to lead to the guy who is being swarmed feeling forced to make plays and struggling.  When the wings and bigs step up and punish the defense, they no longer can devote that level of defensive focus to a single player and that player then will have a better A/TO ratio, better %s, etc.

Right now, Miami feels completely free to put every defender in the game on Trae and doesn't even remotely fear what our 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. options are going to do in response.

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Right now, Miami feels completely free to put every defender in the game on Trae and doesn't even remotely fear what our 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. options are going to do in response.

This is such an exagerration I don't know where to start. Y'all act like the team never scores without Trae on the floor lol!!!

[Sothron]

I haven't talked to anyone but there's no way after rewatching some of the game that Trae isn't hurt. He looked so different from how we've seen him play all season. 

[Lurker]

Thought the game started pretty well, so that was really disappointing.

I do have to think that Trae is more hurt than let on. It may not have worked in previous games, but he was at least trying to force the issue and drive in what I saw. This game...not at all after the ankle injury, and there were times where he wasn't even bringing up the ball.

So, this season most likely ends with all 3 of the top 3 guys hurt...fitting considering what happened back in December with Omicron.

[shakes]

24 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I haven't talked to anyone but there's no way after rewatching some of the game that Trae isn't hurt. He looked so different from how we've seen him play all season. 

sweet, so now we're the team pretending our best player is hurt and using that as an excuse.   I guess we all need to go scrub our timelines from all the comments we made about Joel Embiid last year.

[Sothron]

4 minutes ago, shakes said:

sweet, so now we're the team pretending our best player is hurt and using that as an excuse.   I guess we all need to go scrub our timelines from all the comments we made about Joel Embiid last year.

I don't think it is pretending. Watch the tape yourself. He wasn't even bringing the ball up the court. He looks hurt. His being hurt doesn't excuse the rest of the team and the lack of a second star.

or the coaching. Nate really regressed back into classic Nate this season.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, shakes said:

sweet, so now we're the team pretending our best player is hurt and using that as an excuse.   I guess we all need to go scrub our timelines from all the comments we made about Joel Embiid last year.

Well, it's still different than the JoeLLLL stuff.  Dude looked healthy but out of shape, they just got beat.  Trae looks hurt, and they're losing.

And, for the sake of accuracy before you go off the top rope, I'm not saying Trae being hurt is why they're losing.  I'm just pointing out that this ain't quite that (what 6er fans did).

For the record, I think they're losing because MIA has taken Trae away and no one else has stepped up.  Come at me, @Peoriabird.

[Diesel]

49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Thought the game started pretty well, so that was really disappointing.

I do have to think that Trae is more hurt than let on. It may not have worked in previous games, but he was at least trying to force the issue and drive in what I saw. This game...not at all after the ankle injury, and there were times where he wasn't even bringing up the ball.

So, this season most likely ends with all 3 of the top 3 guys hurt...fitting considering what happened back in December with Omicron.

When the "roll" first happened.. I thought he was out for the series.   Especially when he tried to get up and couldn't.  I think he put on the brave face and went  back out and sucked it up.. and in the presser, he underplayed it but when it happened was the turning point.   He disengaged.   Because we did come out hot. 

I heard Jay Williams talk about Embiid revealing his thumb ailment.   And saying he should not have said anything because now it's a target.   I think Trae didn't want to become a target. 

 

[terrell]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

I haven't talked to anyone but there's no way after rewatching some of the game that Trae isn't hurt. He looked so different from how we've seen him play all season. 

Well he nees to sit.. JC too.. Theyre both a detrement if not 100%.. I mean what is Trae Young if he cant drive the ball or take anyone off the dribble?? And imagine him playing defense hampered.. I could score on a hampered Trae Young...Of course he's gonna get his passes batted if's he's not moving well.. He's only 6'0 tall.. And What is JC without his leaping ability? Id rather see JJ and Coop out there than 50% of Trae or JC..

Edited April 25, 2022 by terrell

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

Well he nees to sit.. JC too.. Theyre both a detrement if not 100%.. I mean what is Trae Young if he cant drive the ball or take anyone off the dribble?? And imagine him playing defense hampered.. I could score on a hampered Trae Young...Of course he's gonna get his passes batted if's he's not moving well.. He's only 6'0 tall.. And What is JC without his leaping ability? Id rather see JJ and Coop out there than 50% of Trae or JC..

I agree with you. I don't want any long term injuries when it is clear we're getting bounced in the first round. I give JC a ton of credit for playing through a fascia tear in his plant foot AND a torn tendon in his shooting hand but he needs to get healthy. Same for Trae