Official Game Thread: Cavaliers at Hawks

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

When you have zero understanding of modern defense, you say things like this. Bey should stay as should Hunter unless we upgrade him 

Yeah, that sounds nice until you see Dre getting his ass busted on a nightly basis.  He is good for standing in front of his man and holding his arms up but gets left on switches and doesn't apply any pressure.   Mitchell (who is a great scorer) didn't look any less great with Dre' on him.  Vit's defense actually was more productive. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah, that sounds nice until you see Dre getting his ass busted on a nightly basis.  He is good for standing in front of his man and holding his arms up but gets left on switches and doesn't apply any pressure.   Mitchell (who is a great scorer) didn't look any less great with Dre' on him.  Vit's defense actually was more productive. 

 

 

Once again, another awful post and that lacks nuance. It's head scratching how bad these posts are. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by NBASupes

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Once again, another awful post and that lacks nuance. It's head scratching how bad these posts are. 

 

Give Dre's defense overall a letter grade, and why?

And who is a comparable defender in the NBA to Dre?

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Once again, another awful post and that lacks nuance. It's head scratching how bad these posts are. 

@NBASupes

you are the only one who thinks that Dre' is a great defender.  We honestly walk around on egg shells with him because you have put him in your Al Horford category.  Yes, he has the size.  He's a big wing.  But in actuallity, he's another Marvin Williams.   He has the size and could have the ability but he lacks the stuff in between.    He's not aggressive.  He butterfingers a lot of balls.   He runs into traffic with no plan.. and On defense, he's average to slightly above average...  But you make him out to be "the glove" and then you start this downriding posts that says otherwise.  

 

You know what happened this year?  Bey Showed up.  Bey showed up and being a year younger than Dre... Bey showed that aggressiveness that we wanted to see from Dre.   Bey goes in and tries.    He plays physically.  He's not butteryfingered.. he gets in there and he scraps.  When was the last time that you saw Dre' Scrap.  Most of the time, Dre is on the floor playing victim.

Now.. Bey is not the defender that Dre is yet.  and Bey doesn't have as much size.  But Bey can get there.  There is nothing prohibiting him from getting there.   Even you have recognized how much better aggressively that Bey is than Dre' which is why I believe you started saying.. we should keep Both. 

But if we keep both, the question will be.. Why are we paying Dre' 90 Million dollars again.   This is Marvin Williams all over. 

I have no loyalty to draft picks.  Just because we drafted a player doesn't mean that he's great and doesn't give him a Hawks for life pass.  At some point, Dre is going to have to start Carrying his weight on both sides of the ball. 

You have cried about needed a #1 option.  Well maybe that was @terrell .  However, I see it as we need a strong #2 and #3 option.   It's a big three world... and Dre is in perfect position to be the #3 option... but he doesn't grasp it.   He prefers to either shoot the three ball or to run into traffic and butterfinger the ball to the other team.   Then roll on the floor and wonder why the refs didn't give him a call. 

When Dre didn't play the other night.  Matt-Hues came in and showed more aggression and smarter play.

Carry-on.

 

 

[Spud2nique]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We honestly walk around on egg shells with him because you have put him in your Al Horford category. 

Egg shells? Hunter is a choppy mafcker and Horford is a soft charmin a$$ mechanical pu$$y of a basketball player. Carry the hell on!

Ps I don’t walk on egg shells I jump on those b!tches.

No, ok, SUPES IS WRONG. Ded wrong and the fact that he doesn’t understand it and keeps on writing the same stuff over and over doesn’t make it right.

I’ll read it once. 

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

@NBASupes

you are the only one who thinks that Dre' is a great defender.  We honestly walk around on egg shells with him because you have put him in your Al Horford category.  Yes, he has the size.  He's a big wing.  But in actuallity, he's another Marvin Williams.   He has the size and could have the ability but he lacks the stuff in between.    He's not aggressive.  He butterfingers a lot of balls.   He runs into traffic with no plan.. and On defense, he's average to slightly above average...  But you make him out to be "the glove" and then you start this downriding posts that says otherwise.  

 

You know what happened this year?  Bey Showed up.  Bey showed up and being a year younger than Dre... Bey showed that aggressiveness that we wanted to see from Dre.   Bey goes in and tries.    He plays physically.  He's not butteryfingered.. he gets in there and he scraps.  When was the last time that you saw Dre' Scrap.  Most of the time, Dre is on the floor playing victim.

Now.. Bey is not the defender that Dre is yet.  and Bey doesn't have as much size.  But Bey can get there.  There is nothing prohibiting him from getting there.   Even you have recognized how much better aggressively that Bey is than Dre' which is why I believe you started saying.. we should keep Both. 

But if we keep both, the question will be.. Why are we paying Dre' 90 Million dollars again.   This is Marvin Williams all over. 

I have no loyalty to draft picks.  Just because we drafted a player doesn't mean that he's great and doesn't give him a Hawks for life pass.  At some point, Dre is going to have to start Carrying his weight on both sides of the ball. 

You have cried about needed a #1 option.  Well maybe that was @terrell .  However, I see it as we need a strong #2 and #3 option.   It's a big three world... and Dre is in perfect position to be the #3 option... but he doesn't grasp it.   He prefers to either shoot the three ball or to run into traffic and butterfinger the ball to the other team.   Then roll on the floor and wonder why the refs didn't give him a call. 

When Dre didn't play the other night.  Matt-Hues came in and showed more aggression and smarter play.

Carry-on.

 

 

And Craig is a generational defender? Y’all heard that one too right? Yeaaaaaa noooo.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Give Dre's defense overall a letter grade, and why?

And who is a comparable defender in the NBA to Dre?

Yeah, let's talk about the levels...

Can I start with:

1.  Tatum, George, Kawhi, & Butler

2.  Ingram, Derozen, Middleton, & Wiggins

3.  Bridges, Barnes, Anunby,  & Jones?

4.  Dillon Brooks,  Kuzma, Barnes, and Barrett

5.  Finney-Smith, Grant, Harris, and Gordon.

6.  Hayward, Tucker, Banchero, and  Porter Jr. 

 

Somewhere between 4 and 5 is where you may find Dre.

Is he a better defender than Dillon Brooks?  How about Harrison Barnes?

 

[REHawksFan]

It's hard for me to know what to make of Dre's Defense when you consider that:

A. Dre is typically guarding the opponents best offensive threat; and

B. Nearly all of his defensive metrics rank toward the bottom of the team and at the bottom of the NBA

Whether it's DWS/48, DefRtg, OppPts, OppFG%, DBPM, or even counting stats like DReb, Steals, and Blocks - all of these he's at or toward the bottom of the team among rotation players.  His metrics are closer to Trae than OO or Clint or even JC in most cases.  And Trae is supposedly the "WOAT"  

That said, I don't see how anyone can claim he's anything MORE than just an average defender at best right now based on defensive measures. I suppose you can argue about whether he's average, below average, or plain bad defensively depending on how much grace you give for guarding (poorly) the opponent's best player all year.    

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

It's hard for me to know what to make of Dre's Defense when you consider that:

A. Dre is typically guarding the opponents best offensive threat; and

B. Nearly all of his defensive metrics rank toward the bottom of the team and at the bottom of the NBA

Whether it's DWS/48, DefRtg, OppPts, OppFG%, DBPM, or even counting stats like DReb, Steals, and Blocks - all of these he's at or toward the bottom of the team among rotation players.  His metrics are closer to Trae than OO or Clint or even JC in most cases.  And Trae is supposedly the "WOAT"  

That said, I don't see how anyone can claim he's anything MORE than just an average defender at best right now based on defensive measures. I suppose you can argue about whether he's average, below average, or plain bad defensively depending on how much grace you give for guarding (poorly) the opponent's best player all year.    

I think he is our best option for the role he plays but his low metrics are a reflection of  the fact that his role would ideally be filled by an elite, disruptive defender and he isn't that at all.  Hunter's best role would not be getting the toughest wing as his assignment but the second toughest wing.  All of those metrics would improve (I don't think that would do much for the counting stats like DReb, Steals and Blocks because he just is never going to be a big generator of those) and conversely if we placed another of our players in the role that Hunter is currently filling their numbers would drop.  He is a very useful piece of a defensive rotation but not someone you build a defense around.  And that is kind of the role he is being asked to play and that is too much to ask from him.  But we don't have a better alternative to fill that role.

[warcore]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He butterfingers a lot of balls.

I recall at least two instances in the Memphis game where the ball bounced right to Dre, and he slapped it out of bounds. 

[warcore]

49 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Matt-Hues

you talkin' about Billy Hoyle??

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think he is our best option for the role he plays but his low metrics are a reflection of  the fact that his role would ideally be filled by an elite, disruptive defender and he isn't that at all.  Hunter's best role would not be getting the toughest wing as his assignment but the second toughest wing.  All of those metrics would improve (I don't think that would do much for the counting stats like DReb, Steals and Blocks because he just is never going to be a big generator of those) and conversely if we placed another of our players in the role that Hunter is currently filling their numbers would drop.  He is a very useful piece of a defensive rotation but not someone you build a defense around.  And that is kind of the role he is being asked to play and that is too much to ask from him.  But we don't have a better alternative to fill that role.

I don't think his metrics would change that significantly. 

The problem.  he does nothing to disrupt.   Most defensive metrics like DFRTs...

have a component of steals, blocks, and defensive FG%.   Dre does very little in those areas.  Then there's a component of rebounds.  Dre' is not a good rebounder either.   So people that are Dre' proponents say.. He plays good "Positional defense".   And yes, he does stand in front of his man well and yes, he doesn't foul... and yes, he is good for stopping his man from just taking a lane without a switch...    But he doesn't just stop anybody.   The most that we hope for is that Dre's man is hindered and pass the ball off.   That's not going to effect possession.  That's not going to effect DFG%.  Or steals or blocks.   He's not really disrupting.   I don't know what you call it... but he's not Bad but he's not good either. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, warcore said:

I recall at least two instances in the Memphis game where the ball bounced right to Dre, and he slapped it out of bounds. 

I recall one of those... I'm like.. JUST GRAB IT!!

 

[AHF]

I think defensive fg% is the area that would improve the most if he went from guarding the top opposing wing to the second wing.  
 

I would also comment that there is value in things like denying a passing angle that prevents your man from getting the ball that he does more than he steals the ball.  That category of things is a major blind spot of defensive metrics so they end up underrating his contribution.  As you note, they are more geared toward rewarding disruptive defenders like Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Kawhi, Artest, etc.  Since the best defenders tend to be disruptive, I don’t think this gets the focus that a failure to reward steals would.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I think defensive fg% is the area that would improve the most if he went from guarding the top opposing wing to the second wing.  
 

I would also comment that there is value in things like denying a passing angle that prevents your man from getting the ball that he does more than he steals the ball.  That category of things is a major blind spot of defensive metrics so they end up underrating his contribution.  As you note, they are more geared toward rewarding disruptive defenders like Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Kawhi, Artest, etc.  Since the best defenders tend to be disruptive, I don’t think this gets the focus that a failure to reward steals would.

i agree,  its good positional play but it doesnt stop a score or change a possession.  At best, it's good in a good defensive system.  But on a below average defensive team, it does very little to help. 

 

[AHF]

44 minutes ago, Diesel said:

i agree,  its good positional play but it doesnt stop a score or change a possession.  At best, it's good in a good defensive system.  But on a below average defensive team, it does very little to help. 

 

I think you are not giving positional defense enough credit.  For example, denying a team's best scorer the ball definitely changes a possession.  Forcing them to take shots from undesirable spots on the floor helps stop a score.  Etc.  Some of those things show up in the number and others don't.  But I do think Hunter meaningful helps our defense over what you would see with a lesser defender / equal offensive player in his stead.

Looking at another metric, Box Score Def RAPTOR and On/Off RAPTOR have Hunter as our 3rd best defender while Overall Def RAPTOR has him as our 4th best defender.  CC and OO are the only people on the team with positive ratings in these categories so they stand out as our most impactful defenders by a significant margin while Hunter is our best perimeter defender by those metrics.  That checks out to me against my eye test.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I think you are not giving positional defense enough credit.  For example, denying a team's best scorer the ball definitely changes a possession.  Forcing them to take shots from undesirable spots on the floor helps stop a score.  Etc.  Some of those things show up in the number and others don't.  But I do think Hunter meaningful helps our defense over what you would see with a lesser defender / equal offensive player in his stead.

Again, I agree, that's magic when it happens.   However, how many of those thing you described are the outcomes we get with Hunter?  This is why you are suggesting that he guards the second best player.   Because he's getting scorched by the best players.   Name one player that Hunter guards that didn't get his average or better?  Just give me one. 

So he is not the antithesis of what you have described... that's what we would like to see in the absence of steals and blocks.  It's the flaw that you and Supes have about Hunter.  At most, we see the best player pass the ball off, reset and score or make an assist.   Like I said, for Hunter to be productive, you would have to put him on a team with ball disrupting defenders.   We had hoped that Clint & DJM would be the ticket.   But we have them... have seen an improvement in Trae's defense and some improvement in JC's defense... but Hunter is still OK.  We've even started to say that our first team's issue is DJM and CLint.     Whereas DJM is not a lockdown defender, he's not really the whole problem.   Hunter has to eat his share of blame too.  Just mediocre.   He doesn't do what we need him to do.. and he doesn't do what we believe him to be able to do.  Just mediocre. cold creamed corn..

 

 

[JeffS17]

23 hours ago, bleachkit said:

As our resident legal expert, I'll let @AHF have the final word on this. Any reasonable, fair review will conclude I'm the winner of this bet. 

I found it -- a little different than what I remembered, but I said he'd shoot 40% from three on low attempts next season.

 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I found it -- a little different than what I remembered, but I said he'd shoot 40% from three on low attempts next season.

 

 

I tried to help you @JeffS17 but now you're moving the goalpost out of range.   I have to go team @bleachkit.

[macdaddy]

44 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I found it -- a little different than what I remembered, but I said he'd shoot 40% from three on low attempts next season.

 

Nice find!   So next season OO will shoot 40% from 3 and he has to average 1 three per game at least?  

[benhillboy]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

@NBASupes

you are the only one who thinks that Dre' is a great defender.  We honestly walk around on egg shells with him because you have put him in your Al Horford category.  Yes, he has the size.  He's a big wing.  But in actuallity, he's another Marvin Williams.   He has the size and could have the ability but he lacks the stuff in between.    He's not aggressive.  He butterfingers a lot of balls.   He runs into traffic with no plan.. and On defense, he's average to slightly above average...  But you make him out to be "the glove" and then you start this downriding posts that says otherwise.  

 

You know what happened this year?  Bey Showed up.  Bey showed up and being a year younger than Dre... Bey showed that aggressiveness that we wanted to see from Dre.   Bey goes in and tries.    He plays physically.  He's not butteryfingered.. he gets in there and he scraps.  When was the last time that you saw Dre' Scrap.  Most of the time, Dre is on the floor playing victim.

Now.. Bey is not the defender that Dre is yet.  and Bey doesn't have as much size.  But Bey can get there.  There is nothing prohibiting him from getting there.   Even you have recognized how much better aggressively that Bey is than Dre' which is why I believe you started saying.. we should keep Both. 

But if we keep both, the question will be.. Why are we paying Dre' 90 Million dollars again.   This is Marvin Williams all over. 

I have no loyalty to draft picks.  Just because we drafted a player doesn't mean that he's great and doesn't give him a Hawks for life pass.  At some point, Dre is going to have to start Carrying his weight on both sides of the ball. 

You have cried about needed a #1 option.  Well maybe that was @terrell .  However, I see it as we need a strong #2 and #3 option.   It's a big three world... and Dre is in perfect position to be the #3 option... but he doesn't grasp it.   He prefers to either shoot the three ball or to run into traffic and butterfinger the ball to the other team.   Then roll on the floor and wonder why the refs didn't give him a call. 

When Dre didn't play the other night.  Matt-Hues came in and showed more aggression and smarter play.

Carry-on.

 

 

Please don’t do this, I’m sure that isn’t his intent. 

[terrell]

23 hours ago, NBASupes said:

When you have zero understanding of modern defense, you say things like this. Bey should stay as should Hunter unless we upgrade him 

Ok?