Official Game Thread: Hawks at 76ers -- GAME 1

[hawkman]

22 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I've always made the argument that some of the stats Luka generates (especially rebounds) are empty stats that don't impact the outcome of the game.

For example, how many of the rebounds Luka gets would have normally been grabbed by a big man on his own team but Luka grabbed the rebound because he wasn't out where he should have been at 3/4 court to initiate transition or guard in the event of an offensive rebound kick out. Or in the case of Trae's assists, he truly is creating for his teammates where in a large number of Luka's assists, he just giving the ball up when his iso attempt fails. I've watched quite a few of Luka's games where he gets an assist when in reality someone on his team is actually just bailing him out. His main attribute being he is big and draws a crowd leaving someone open but its not the same as creating and its less reliable come playoff time.

I'm one of the bigger stat heads around but some stats can be empty. This isn't to take away from the player Luka is, but IMHO Trae's 35/10 can be way more impactful than a Luka 30/10/10.  I'll take Trae almost every time because what he does makes others better.

In this example, look at Capela. Capela is playing 2.7 less minutes per game for the Hawks than he was with Houston but is scoring 1.3 more points per game and getting .5 more rebounds. Trae is not only being impactful himself but helping Clint be impactful as well.

Now lets look at Porzingis. He is getting more rebounds as a Maverick than as a Knick but he's scoring 2.6 less points per game and getting 1.4 less blocks. He's coming into his prime and his numbers should be increasing, not decreasing. He's shooting 4% higher than 2 years ago but scoring 2.6 less points per game. Some of Luka's stats are coming at the expense of his teammates, even though you could argue that teammate is earning it more by doing better work on the glass and shooting a higher percentage.

I'll take Trae's team first basketball. Just my preference.

Agreed. Generational talent, but if Westbrook and Harden get criticized so should he. Now the 'Stans are trashing his supporting cast when he actually has a pretty good team around him. That excuse will only work for another season or two. 

[enrique]

7 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

When he's hitting threes, that's big for us. Teams are so worried about Trae and Bogi, they usually concede JC on the perimeter. 

His corner 3s have been bailing us out on several occasions...Not to mention Red Velvets 3p% increase for these playoffs. He's really impacting games.

[bleachkit]

4 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Trae has a few clear cut advantages over Luka as it stands today: FT shooting, conditioning, and pure passing no question.  Trae is also rapidly closing in on reaching his defensive potential, Luka don’t give a damn about making standout plays.

Um, Luka put up monster numbers in these playoffs. 35.7 points per game, 10.3 assists, 7.9 rebounds, while be guarding by some excellent Clippers defenders. What more do you want? They lost in 7 to a good team, no shame in that at all. Your "Luka dont give a damn about making standout plays" is an absurd, completely unfounded ad hominem attack. His play was outstanding. 

[benhillboy]

Simmons played 23 more minutes than Maxey yet took fewer shots lol.  His passivity is key.

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Agreed. Generational talent, but if Westbrook and Harden get criticized so should he. Now the 'Stans are trashing his supporting cast when he actually has a pretty good team around him. That excuse will only work for another season or two. 

Numbers wise, there wasnt much more Westbrook or Harden could have done in their prime. For Luka, there isnt much more numbers wise he can do. I'm not sure what people want. Was anybody really expecting the Mavs to win a title this year? Their roster is mediocre as hell. If your criticism is he didnt win a title, was that really the expectation? 

[marco102]

Heard on the Ringer Podcast the new national narrative.  Trae's roster is light year's better than Lukas.  Well It's not light years', but it is better. You want to know why?  Because Travis traded for Trae and got extra draft picks and thought about drafting players that fit.  He got shat on last season because the Mavs made the playoffs by putting all their chips on Porzingas. 

I just hate how they keep moving these goal posts.  Trae Young was supposed to take a g league roster to the playoffs.  He'll never get the credit he deserves because he was traded for Luka.  At this point, they can't ignore him now. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by marco102

[benhillboy]

16 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Um, Luka put up monster numbers in these playoffs. 35.7 points per game, 10.3 assists, 7.9 rebounds, while be guarding by some excellent Clippers defenders. What more do you want? They lost in 7 to a good team, no shame in that at all. Your "Luka dont give a damn about making standout plays" is an absurd, completely unfounded ad hominem attack. His play was outstanding. 

Calm down bro you on one.  I rock with Luka and don’t care for that roster at all. Curry’s departure was a monumental blow.  But I’ll take my eyes and his deeply  negative 100 possession rating in the series over your assessment tho preciate it.

Edited June 7, 2021 by benhillboy

[kg01]

Just now, bleachkit said:

Numbers wise, there wasnt much more Westbrook or Harden could have done in their prime. For Luka, there isnt much more numbers wise he can do. I'm not sure what people want. Was anybody really expecting the Mavs to win a title this year? Their roster is mediocre as hell. If your criticism is he didnt win a title, was that really the expectation? 

It's a double-edged sword though, isn't it?

His style of play doesn't lend itself to having a better cast.  Better guys won't put up with just watching his show.  He refused to take a step back for Porzingo, for example. 

So he's gonna have to elevate a "lesser" group.  And most eggsperts have forecasted multiple titles for him.  Thats his expectation, maybe not this year but soon.

[hawkman]

Just now, bleachkit said:

Numbers wise, there wasnt much more Westbrook or Harden could have done in their prime. For Luka, there isnt much more numbers wise he can do. I'm not sure what people want. Was anybody really expecting the Mavs to win a title this year? Their roster is mediocre as hell. If your criticism is he didnt win a title, was that really the expectation? 

Nope. I'm just saying that nobody is above criticism when it comes to their ability, or lack thereof, to make their teammates better. He is a generational talent, but the excuse that "it's everybody else's fault" will not age well. Both Harden and Westbrook did everything they could in their primes EXCEPT play the type of basketball that benefitted their teams. Sometimes less is more. Even Trae chafed at that lesson early on in the season, but him accepting that made him a better player. 

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Heard on the Ringer Podcast the new national narrative.  Trae's roster is light year's better than Lukas.  Well It's not light years', but it is better. You want to know why?  Because Travis traded for Trae and got extra draft picks and thought about drafting players that fit.  He got shat on last season because the Mavs made the playoffs by putting all their chips on Porzingas. 

I just hate how they keep moving these goal posts.  Trae Young was supposed to take a g league roster to the playoffs.  He'll never get the credit he deserves because he was traded for Luka.  At this point, they can't ignore him now. 

I know the narrative that the Hawks have a better roster than the Mavs seems like a goal post moving and perhaps it is, but nevertheless it might be true. Our starting 5 Trae, Bogi, Dre, JC and Capela, is just better than the Mavs starting 5 of Doncic, THJR, DFS, Porzingus and Marjanovich (or whoever they put at center). 

[marco102]

11 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I know the narrative that the Hawks have a better roster than the Mavs seems like a goal post moving and perhaps it is, but nevertheless it might be true. Our starting 5 Trae, Bogi, Dre, JC and Capela, is just better than the Mavs starting 5 of Doncic, THJR, DFS, Porzingus and Marjanovich (or whoever they put at center). 

I said as much, but this was held against Trae when Luka's roster was better.  Did they give him the benefit of the doubt? Nope, they said empty stats and he shouldn't have been an Allstar. 

The national media just don't seem to want to give him respect.  That's the point I'm making. 

Like I personally think Luka is a better player right now, due to his size and his shooting has improved lately. However, the gap between Trae and Luka is not astronomical like some make it out to be.  Trae could very well end up being the better player if his shooting improves (from an effective field goal perspective).

Edited June 7, 2021 by marco102

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, hawkman said:

Nope. I'm just saying that nobody is above criticism when it comes to their ability, or lack thereof, to make their teammates better. He is a generational talent, but the excuse that "it's everybody else's fault" will not age well. Both Harden and Westbrook did everything they could in their primes EXCEPT play the type of basketball that benefitted their teams. Sometimes less is more. Even Trae chafed at that lesson early on in the season, but him accepting that made him a better player. 

For Westbrook that's probably true because he's too inefficient. But Harden should have won a title, they were really close a couple time. They ran into a juggernaut of a team in GS. So there is a considerable amount of luck in these things too. 

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I said at much, but this was held against Trae when Luka's roster was better.  Did they give him the benefit of the doubt? Nope, they said empty stats and he shouldn't have been an Allstar. 

The national media just don't seem to want to give him respect.  That's the point I'm making. 

Like I personally think Luka is a better player right now, due to his size and his shooting has improved lately. However, the gap between Trae and Luka is not astronomical like some make it out to be.  Trae could very well end up being the better player if his shooting improves (from an effective field goal perspective).

How do you think the Mavs would do with Trae? Trae, THJR, Porzingus, DFS, and either Boban or Powell at center. I'm not really felling that. 

[Lurker]

Yeah, I'd take Trae/Bogi/Hunter/Collins/Capela over that starting lineup that the Mavs trotted out there today. Didn't even realize that Boban was starting lmfao. 

The biggest issue for the Mavs is probably Porzingis not playing like a star. Besides him you have a collection of solid role players like Hardaway Jr, Brunson, and Finney-Smith. 

Really hope we get to see a lot more of the lineup I mentioned above...hopefully Hunter's knee doesn't become a chronic thing.

[marco102]

Just now, bleachkit said:

How do you think the Mavs would do with Trae? Trae, THJR, Porzingus, DFS, and either Boban or Powell at center. I'm not really felling that. 

Don't know and don't care.

That's the game the national pundits are playing.  Schlenk built a great roster around his rising young star.  That's all I care about. 

Like I said. I know we have the better roster, but it wouldn't be the same roster with Luka because we wouldn't have the additional draft capital.

[Spud2nique]

17 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Trae's roster is light year's better than Lukas. 

But they have a unicorn  

[bleachkit]

Just now, Lurker said:

Yeah, I'd take Trae/Bogi/Hunter/Collins/Capela over that starting lineup that the Mavs trotted out there today. Didn't even realize that Boban was starting lmfao. 

The biggest issue for the Mavs is probably Porzingis not playing like a star. Besides him you have a collection of solid role players like Hardaway Jr, Brunson, and Finney-Smith. 

Really hope we get to see a lot more of the lineup I mentioned above...hopefully Hunter's knee doesn't become a chronic thing.

Mavs roster just isnt that good. I felt that way at the beginning of the year and i still fell that way. You got Boban and DFS as starters. Really? Its like the Knicks with Taj Gibson and Bullock as starters. Thats mediocre as hell. We have a solid 1 through 5 when Dre is healthy. That's why we are winning. Teams still matters, no matter what people say. 

[enrique]

9 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I know the narrative that the Hawks have a better roster than the Mavs seems like a goal post moving and perhaps it is, but nevertheless it might be true. Our starting 5 Trae, Bogi, Dre, JC and Capela, is just better than the Mavs starting 5 of Doncic, THJR, DFS, Porzingus and Marjanovich (or whoever they put at center). 

The problem with this concession is that when it came to ROY, the fact that Atlanta had a horrific roster and the Mavs had a solid roster with a top-5 bench didn't ever enter the national conversation about why Trae should be considered on the merits of his statistical accomplishments. But that was scoffed at. Now when it comes to playoff time, suddenly people want to say "Oh wait, Luka doesn't have a good supporting cast." Well his on/off splits aren't revealing that he is the man and no one else can do a thing on the team. Trae and Luka in the playoffs this year are both #3 on their teams for on/off splits. 

If Trae didn't get any credit for the abysmal team he played on his rookie season, why should we concede anything to someone whose playing on a worse roster right now. Just doesn't make any sense. I accepted the "Hawks Suck therefore Luka is ROY." I will let the "Dallas Sucks...Trae is a stud" stand.

[hawkman]

11 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

For Westbrook that's probably true because he's too inefficient. But Harden should have won a title, they were really close a couple time. They ran into a juggernaut of a team in GS. So there is a considerable amount of luck in these things too. 

He ran into a team with a superstar that did what he needed to do to make his team better, even if that meant him playing off the ball. While GS played team ball, Harden's teammates lived and died watching him iso on the perimeter for a step back three, trip to the line, or a bailout assist (sound familiar?). When the refs swallowed the whistle, that style of play ended in dead possessions. He refused to change and dragged the team down along with him postseason after postseason. That's what hurt his rep. The "other guy" has a season or two for the excuses to work before he ends up with the same rep. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by hawkman

[Spud2nique]

I would have done a Herschel Walker grandfather type trade to get the Dallas pick that year as well and keep Luka.

 

Trae and Luka. That would have been unfair.

Grandfather trades usually backfire as it did with Herschel and the Vikings but that’s football and each deal is independent of its own. I would have pulled the trigger to get both Trae and Luka and team them up. I would have traded 3 first round picks and players. You risk about 5 year but if it pans out you have a 10 year championship window if you play your cards right.

All Monday morning QB stuff.

If I had to do it all over I’m still taking Trae and LOOOOVVVVIIING IT!!!!! We got our man. He’s made of that old strong cloth!