Hawks looking to move John Collins? This again?

[RedDawg#8]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I haven't seen anyone advocate for Crowder on here in regards to JC. 

We don't have the same starting lineup anymore. Our shooting has decreased due to Murray lack of range

Correct, so just like when we traded for Clint we immediately point the blame back at JC for the spacing now being an issue. 

It’s his fault that in order to put a defense around our best player, we found some guys who are great defenders but don’t space the floor that well. That falls on JC.

Meanwhile JC, outside of this current month long shoot slump, is a proven shooing big whose defense has finally caught up to the rest of his game. 

Not to mention, we ARE winning. We ARE 3rd in the East. Our record is tied for 4th best in the NBA.

So, yes, let’s change things up and move JC to acquire more of what may already be on the roster. 

Let’s ignore the first 5 seasons of their careers and conclude that in one month to start the season, both Lauri and JC are now who they are for good.

 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Correct, so just like when we traded for Clint we immediately point the blame back at JC for the spacing now being an issue. 

It’s his fault that in order to put a defense around our best player, we found some guys who are great defenders but don’t space the floor that well. That falls on JC.

Meanwhile JC, outside of this current month long shoot slump, is a proven shooing big whose defense has finally caught up to the rest of his game. 

Not to mention, we ARE winning. We ARE 3rd in the East. Our record is tied for 4th best in the NBA.

So, yes, let’s change things up and move JC to acquire more of what may already be on the roster. 

Let’s ignore the first 5 seasons of their careers and conclude that in one month to start the season, both Lauri and JC are now who they are for good.

 

We did till he improved his range. The issue is, he needs to be a shooter, not just a finisher with range. Also, his defense was a far cry from what it is today. 

No, it doesn't fall on JC. I am not following you. 

I would have to agree. 

We are winning, just not impressively and JC outside of the first 5 games has struggled mightily on offense. Not exactly his fault though. 

Not following, please explain

I've been on record we should move from him as I stated, he's excellent as that guy on a bad team or a pseudo good team like the Hawks of 15-16 but on a good team, he has to be more, especially on offense. Like Chris Bosh, his numbers will never be great in Atlanta as long as Murray and Capela are here. They eat from his spots. 

[JTB]

11 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Love how for years many of us defended JC because of his offensive impact and were told that offensive PF’s are useless and we needed a defensive upgrade at the position.

Now JC is having his best defensive impact season and we are saying he is trash because his scoring is off.

We want to replace JC with either:

Jae Crowder, a lesser scorer, worse career shooter, and good defender but 3 inches shorter at 6-6

or 

Lauri Markkanen, balling out this season, cant lie. But, for his career, equal shooting splits, worse rebounder and worse defender. 

There is no rush to move JC. We have time to see if his shooting comes back around. I an intrigued by the draft picks associated with Lauri, but I am not in love with the defensive downgrade when we finally have some semblance of an identity on that end of the floor finally.

To me, a lot rides on Bogi. I’m sure Travis did not expect him to be out this long when rounding out the roster.  We have to see what we look like with him in the lineup before moving a core player to solve an issue that Bogi should help with.

This is a great post and very good facts.

3 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Correct, so just like when we traded for Clint we immediately point the blame back at JC for the spacing now being an issue. 

It’s his fault that in order to put a defense around our best player, we found some guys who are great defenders but don’t space the floor that well. That falls on JC.

Meanwhile JC, outside of this current month long shoot slump, is a proven shooing big whose defense has finally caught up to the rest of his game. 

Not to mention, we ARE winning. We ARE 3rd in the East. Our record is tied for 4th best in the NBA.

So, yes, let’s change things up and move JC to acquire more of what may already be on the roster. 

Let’s ignore the first 5 seasons of their careers and conclude that in one month to start the season, both Lauri and JC are now who they are for good.

 

Again…another great post. 

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

We did till he improved his range. The issue is, he needs to be a shooter, not just a finisher with range. Also, his defense was a far cry from what it is today. 

No, it doesn't fall on JC. I am not following you. 

I would have to agree. 

We are winning, just not impressively and JC outside of the first 5 games has struggled mightily on offense. Not exactly his fault though. 

Not following, please explain

I've been on record we should move from him as I stated, he's excellent as that guy on a bad team or a pseudo good team like the Hawks of 15-16 but on a good team, he has to be more, especially on offense. Like Chris Bosh, his numbers will never be great in Atlanta as long as Murray and Capela are here. They eat from his spots. 

I too have been on record for saying let’s move JC BUT for the right piece and I can admit it’s controversial to what I have said in the past regarding Collins (which was taking shots at his defense) but as you have pointed out this team is different now with the addition of Murray and the offense has taken a step back to improve the defense in which the defense has improved a lot so Collins deserves credit for the defensive improvement but so does Capela, Murray, Hunter, OO….even the rook Griffin has made some key defensive plays.

The question going forward  is where does Collins defense  impact stand vs the elite teams in the nba if he’s going to be in this shooting slump assuming that’s what it really is ????

 

 

[warcore]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

As @TheNorthCydeRises pointed out, with his limited touches to score, he needs to limit his TOs. 

It's like because his touches are limited, he's too forceful when he does get the ball. How many times last night did we see him dribble into a crowd, get in the air without a plan and throw the ball to the cRaptors?

[JTB]

I really hope Collins finds his offense within this new personnel. 
 

Schlenk and fields are in a really tough position with this and I know that sounds crazy cause our defense is much improved and currently in the top 10 but our lack of offensive shooting and space will eventually catch up with us if it can’t be fixed with the roster as it is.

[JTB]

16 minutes ago, warcore said:

It's like because his touches are limited, he's too forceful when he does get the ball. How many times last night did we see him dribble into a crowd, get in the air without a plan and throw the ball to the cRaptors?

He’s looking for his shots within the offense and they aren’t where he wants them so once he gets the ball he’s forcing.

unfortunately this should really fall on McMillan and his staff to design plays to get him involved but it’s obvious they want Collins to be a spot up shooter and defender. A 4&D if there were such a thing.

Supes pointed out a Bosh in Miami comparison not in terms of talent but very similar role change.

[JTB]

 

[gurpilo]

I think a good destination would be the Pacers, trade for Myles Turner and Jalen Smith, I would even include a first, Collins and Jackson are a real good fit.

[Alf]

I like JC, but let's be honest: He is not playing up not only to what we as fans expect,but to his contract either. I would like for him to stay and prove himself and get some shooting form back, but will not be totally against getting something good back for him either and getting said money off the books.

This, as reports have said,will drag on for a bit I believe and at the end of the day we will see what Fields is made of even more as our GM wherever the chips may fall.

[Sothron]

From my talk with my source it sounds like the Hawks feel they can get a fair return for JC this time around versus other times when he was up in trade talks. The team is winning, JC is playing well despite 3 point shooting woes and there is no sense of "we gotta move this guy" that was unfairly floated around before around the NBA front offices. 

If we can get a fair return for JC I do think he will be traded. Personally I would not trade him for anything less than a trade up to get a superstar. Frankly speaking there are not many PFs that check all the boxes that JC does on a nightly basis. Yes, he has a few flaws but if you look around the league there's not many truly great PFs out there.

[sturt]

One of the great advantages that I believe exceptional teams routinely enjoy is continuity in their top tier of players. I think we compromised that when we traded Kevin, and I think we more or less decimate that if we trade JC.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

One of the great advantages that I believe exceptional teams routinely enjoy is continuity in their top tier of players. I think we compromised that when we traded Kevin, and I think we more or less decimate that if we trade JC.

It is definitely a risk if we were to move him.  This was the same concern that I expressed with the idea of trading him for Bojan (along with the age/contract status of BB).

[JayBirdHawk]

I am so over this!

In the words of Marlo Stansfield (The Wire) - "Either Do it or Don't, but I got some place to be"

[Wretch]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

One of the great advantages that I believe exceptional teams routinely enjoy is continuity in their top tier of players. I think we compromised that when we traded Kevin, and I think we more or less decimate that if we trade JC.

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, sturt said:

One of the great advantages that I believe exceptional teams routinely enjoy is continuity in their top tier of players. I think we compromised that when we traded Kevin, and I think we more or less decimate that if we trade JC.

I agree with this. I am not joking when I ask people to look at NBA's power forwards and come up with names better than Collins that we could actually trade for. I don't think there is a single one. Not one. 

[ShooterSays]

45 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I agree with this. I am not joking when I ask people to look at NBA's power forwards and come up with names better than Collins that we could actually trade for. I don't think there is a single one. Not one. 

Yeah the list of PF's around JC's skill level that are realistic for trade are Lauri and -end of list- .... literally don't see anyone else. 

Is this a forward looking tax avoidance move knowing we have to pay DJ in 2 years???

[JeffS17]

Lauri would be perfect, but he would cost us a FRP at a minimum.  That contract is so nice and good for another two seasons after this one.  My guess is we are looking for a cheaper shooting PF that can play defense + an expiring which will free up salary to pay Murray.  Crowder kind of fits that but a guy like PJ Tucker fits better (dont think hes available though).  KD would be ideal lol but that's a long shot and risky given price

[Sothron]

45 minutes ago, ShooterSays said:

Yeah the list of PF's around JC's skill level that are realistic for trade are Lauri and -end of list- .... literally don't see anyone else. 

Is this a forward looking tax avoidance move knowing we have to pay DJ in 2 years???

Yes. Straight from the source, yes. Even though the new CBA is going to make John's contract peanuts soon. 

Until Tony Ressler actually pays the LT I personally do not think the Hawks will ever pay it. We have never paid it as a franchise as far as I know.

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Lauri would be perfect, but he would cost us a FRP at a minimum.  That contract is so nice and good for another two seasons after this one.  My guess is we are looking for a cheaper shooting PF that can play defense + an expiring which will free up salary to pay Murray.  Crowder kind of fits that but a guy like PJ Tucker fits better (dont think hes available though).  KD would be ideal lol but that's a long shot and risky given price

Utah already offered us Lauri plus two of the Twolves first rounders for Collins.

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Utah already offered us Lauri plus two of the Twolves first rounders for Collins.

And why would we decline that?  If that's true, it doesn't really make sense to me at all... why would we decline and why would Utah give up picks for JC?

[JeffS17]

7 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Until Tony Ressler actually pays the LT I personally do not think the Hawks will ever pay it. We have never paid it as a franchise as far as I know.

Same.  I don't really care what he says in interviews... the evidence is in the GM actions, i.e shedding Heurters salary for a late 1st.  Saying you're willing to pay means nothing, unfortunately.  I'm sure every GM is "willing" if they get lucky and put together a dynasty team, but that's incredibly unlikely if you're not spending to win beforehand.  You need special circumstances like Curry being underpaid after ankle issues or multiple young players contributing heavily on rookie deals, etc.